Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts

Faith,
You've said a lot, but you haven't shown anything.Authentication from within.The "Bible" can't authenticate itself since it is a collection of written works. Each author would have to speak for themselves.

As you can see from the list, the authors are not identified in most of the written works of the Bible. Aside from the prophets, I don't see an unknown author claiming to be an eyewitness.If you feel that the authors of these works do identify themselves, please share the verse(s).The Book of Mormon reads more like eyewitness accounts than the Gospels.So what gives more authority or validity to unknown authors in the Christian Bible as opposed to anyone elses unknown authors?

---

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

quote:

---

I can't prove a negative. It is up to you to prove that it DOES self-authenticate ACCORDING TO THE PRINCIPLES I LAID DOWN IN MY FIRST POST.

---

Faith, no one has asked you to prove the negative. I already proved your case to be an absolute fallacy and posted three links with absolute evidence. Tow about the Qur'aan and one about the Bible (not inspired). And I can tell that you have not read any of them.

quote:

---

I gave a ton of facts about the Bible and said the Koran does NOT share any of them. It is my opponents' job, not mine, to prove that they do, and not by just throwing links at me. You must argue the case and use the links for support.

---

You did not argue your case at all, you used stereotyped and bigoted assertions over and over again. You have no knolwedge of Qur'aan. Qur'aan give no status to Christianity, let me edcuate you about Qur'aan (Period). Qur'aan does not mentions "Jesus" at all. Prove me wrong if you can, here is the proof that Bible is just a gobbledygook. One of the Christian Trojan horse is the absurd claim that the gospels are inspired word of God. However, Christian Bible {New Testament} never claims itself to be the word of inspiration. 2 Timothy 3:16 is the only verse in the entire NT on which Christians’ so-called claim of inspiration is based upon,

​

KJV- 2 Timothy 3
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

​

2 Timothy 3:16 is the reference to Old Testament, because New Testament was not yet fabricated in the way it is known today. A 2nd century writer named Justin Martyr has further elaborated this idea, his further clarification is that this inspiration is attributed not to the actual Hebrew text, but only to the accuracy of its translation into Greek. {See Helmut Koester, What Is- And Is Not-Inspired, Bible Review, vol. xi, no. 5, October 1995, p. 18}

​

Christian scholars and Christian missionaries often pepper their writings with the term of ‘inspiration’; for example P.W. Comfort states that, certain individualswere inspired by God to write Gospels accounts to substantiate the oral tradition. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 3} And again, the scribes copying the New Testament at a later stage may have considered themselves to have been inspired by the Spirit in making certain adjustment to the exemplar. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 5} But the anonymous authors of the four gospels might very well have disagreed with P. W. Comfort. The earliest gospel, Mark, was scavenged as source by the later ghost authors of Matthew and Luke, who altered, omitted, and abbreviated many of Mark’s stories. Such treatment would never have taken place had they thought that God inspired Mark, or that his words were the unqualified truth. {See Helmut Koester, What Is- And Is Not-Inspired, Bible Review, vol. xi, no. 5, October 1995, pp. 18, 48}

​

Having observed that these claims of inspiration in the New Testament have no legitimacy, let us now examine, how Christians until now have handled these fabricated gospels and consider whether this treatment is congruent with what a sacred text deserves?

​

According to P.W. Comfort, the gospels were first known in Christian circles orally before finding their way to the written page. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 3} Not a single book from the New Testament has survived in the original author’s handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 3-4}

​

A note about date: The date c. 100-115 is a pure guesswork, because the manuscript does not contain any Christian date, as the calendar system had yet to be invented. Thus, these dates based on guesswork may well be off with a marginal difference of decades to centuries.

​

Copies of various books from the NT were made extensively throughout the first several centuries, generally by non-professionals who rarely checked for errors afterwards. There was a little incentive to check them anyway: almost all Christians during the first century expected the impending return of Christ, and likely never realized that they were preserving a text for the distant future. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 6} After some time, the text in circulation no longer bore strict resemblance to the work, which had been original authored, so that any scribe duplicating a parchment with great fidelity was not necessarily creating an accurate reproduction of the original. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 7} Additionally, the early Christians did not necessarily treat the NT text as a ‘sacred’ text{See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 6} one whose every letter was fixed and holy. They may have felt themselves inspired, on occasion, to make alterations to the parchment that lay before them. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 6}

quote:

---

And some of what you are saying is just plain nonsensical. You challenge me to provide supporting evidence for the fact that being the single one-and-only recipient of a revelation from an "angel" leaves Mohammed and the Koran without corroborating authentication? That's almost funny except you probably don't see why which makes it anything but funny.

​

Sorry, it's an obvious fact in itself that the Koran has none of the self-authenticating elements the Bible has. The Bible has multiple prophets and they agree with each other about the essential teachings of God, over 19 centuries up to Christ, and they were members of a community of prophets and elders who oversaw each other's work, and part of a long history of God's work with their people.

---

It is non-sensical because you say os? Or it is because you are evasive? Here Qur'aan is not on trial and/or neither the Prophethood of Muhammad — is on trial. If you don't believe or deny that, it means nothing to me. However, I like to see the evidence and/or facts rather your repeated and/or over and over use of same stereotyped and bigoted expressions. There is nothing in your rhetoric beside jargon and clichs.

​

Can you please provide me with these alleged self-authenticating elements from the Bible?

​

Can you also tell me that if that is true than why the Judaism and Christianity are poles apart in dogma while shamring the same book?

quote:

---

Mohammed is just this one guy who came out of nowhere, had no religious community or other background to recommend him, and has no other witnesses to his experiences with the angel, and he wrote this book the Koran singlehandedly, with no corroborating witness. There is no comparison with the Bible at all. It's open and shut that his credentials are nonexistent.

---

You again concluded your post with attack on Islaam without presenting a shred of evidence. Also you conviniently forgot to asnwer my question that how knolwedge of Qur'aan do you have?

​

I can bet your knolwedge is simply limited to run down to some website and copy and paste the English translation of Qur'aan, without knowing its sources and/or accuracy. I have read your quotes of Qur'aanic verses, which are incorrect. But chose to ignore since I thought we are not discussing the Qur'aanI have posted facts with sources that Biblical claim of authenticity is"Hogwash" and cannot accepted. Beside that, how your Bible can be self-authenticating when it is missing eighteen (18) books), so where are those eighteen missing books, Faith? And why are they missing?CheckmateThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:02 AM

The Gulag was where the Soviet authorities sent people who dared to disagree with thwm.Perhaps Faith means that people who dare to disagree with her should be sent to prison camps. If she meant that at least she would not be insulting the dissidents who were unjustly imprisoned by the Soviet regime.

there is a famous book of Hadith (sayings and actions attributed to Muhammed) by imam bukhari.all of its entries were gathered from people who claim they had seen or heard muhammed. this collection of hadith was done under strict rules and conditions. people would be selected dependent on their reputation and faith in islam. there is a very strict science to it.also if imam bukhari found that a multitude of people told him the same saying of muhammed, then this would be deemed absoulutely true as it would be unlikely that a large group of people would transmit the same lie. also each before each hadith can be seen the name if the person who transmited it it has a strong 'chain of transmission'. for example:'Narrated by Abdullah bin Yazid Al Ansari (Radhiallaho anho): The Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam) forbade robbery (taking away what belongs to others without their permission), and also forbade mutilation (or maiming) of bodies. Bukhari Vol. 3 : No. 654'but even though there are hundreds of hadith in this one book, muslims do not deem them as holy or the words of God.they are mainly used to explain the verses of Quran in the prophets words, thus they are very important. infact there have been many times when hadith have been fasley attributed to the prophet to further the desires of men. the general rule is, if any hadith contradicts the Quran, it is false.now we have the Bible. itself not the word of Jesus but was, as chrisitians admit, transmitted from person to person, the same as the collection of Hadith. itslef relied on eye witnesses and their truthfullness. but where is the 'science' of the collection of the bible? where is the 'chain of transmission'? i havent seen it. does it just rely on the claims of 4 main writers? who were they? what is their background? but the main question to ask is 'where they prophets?' did they speak DIRECT with God? No. they relied on the words of other men plus not forgetting the fact that early christians were killed as heretics and had their copies of scripture burned if it didnt agree with Pauls teachings. now, as some of the Hadith, they have become corrupted and used for the desires of men.so as we can see the Bible is very different from the Quran but is infact similar to the collection of Hadith. the same hadith which we dont call HOLY. remember jesus didnt write ANY of the bible, yet you base your WHOLE belef on it and him. so can you call it authentic? that is for your conscience to decide.and bear in mind, jesus may have raised the dead with permission from Allah, but the miracle of Muhammed, which is still apparent today and continually draws christians, jews and non-believers to it is the Quran. It is a miracle which is right in front of you. just read it.

Thank you very much for that very interesting first post (Well I learnt something about the Islamic religion that I didn't know before!)Can I ask a question?

quote:

---

there is a famous book of Hadith (sayings and actions attributed to Muhammed) by imam bukhari.

---

Do we have a date on when the accounts were drawn together in this book?RegardsCharles

quote:

---

The Koran itself does not present itself as authored by anybody, not even God. And we KNOW the Bible is authored by God, and since the two contradict each other, they can't both be authored by God in any case.

---

Faith, then would you like to meet the Qur'aanic challenge that has been standing unmatch and unmet for the last over1400 years? You should not have any problem meeting this challenge, right?The Glorious Qur'aan
Sura: 11. Huud Verse: 13 Juz: 12 Revealed: MakkahTransliteration
'AM YAQOLON IFTARAA -HU QUL FA- I'TO BI- cASHR SUWAR MITHL -HI MUFTARAYAAT WA- UDcO MAN ISTAT.AcTUM MIN DONI 'ALLAAH 'IN KUNTUM S.AADIQENMuhsin Khan
Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad SAW) forged it (the Qur'aan)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged Surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!"Allaah (SWT), the Exalted, explains the miracle of the Qur’aan, and that no one is able to produce its like, or even bring ten chapters, or one chapter like it. The reason for this is that the Speech of Lord of all that exists is not like the speech of the created beings, just as His attributes are not like the attributes of the creation. Nothing resembles His existence. Exalted is He, the Most Holy, and the Sublime. There is no deity worthy of worship except He and there is no true Lord other than He.The Glorious Qur'aan
Sura: 11. Huud Verse: 14 Juz: 12 Revealed: MakkahTransliteration
FA- 'IN LAM YASTAJEBO LA- -KUM FA- IcLAMO 'ANNA-MAA UNZILA BI- cILM 'ALLAAH WA- 'AN LAA 'ILAAH 'ILLAA HUWA FA- HAL 'ANTUM MUSLIMONMuhsin Khan
If then they answer you not, know then that the Revelation (this Qur'an) is sent down with the Knowledge of Allah and that La ilaha illa Huwa: (none has the right to be worshipped but He)! Will you then be Muslims (those who submit to Islam)?Then Allaah (SWT) goes on to say,FA- 'IN LAM YASTAJEBO LA- -KUM
If then they answer you not [Glorious Qur’aan 11:14]Meaning, that if they do not come with a reply to that which you have challenged them with (to reproduction of ten chapters like the Quraan), then know that it is due to their inability to do so. Know (that this is a proof) that this is the commands and His prohibitions.Then Allaah (SWT) continues by saying,
WA- 'AN LAA 'ILAAH 'ILLAA HUWA FA- HAL 'ANTUM MUSLIMON
and that La ilaha illa Huwa: (none has the right to be worshipped but He)! Will you then be Muslims (those who submit to Islam)? [Glorious Quraan 11:12]Are you up to taking on Qur'aan challenge? It is an acid test for you to make your bite as bad as your bark is?This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:36 AM

---

"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

quote:

---

Perhaps Faith means that people who dare to disagree with her should be sent to prison camps. If she meant that at least she would not be insulting the dissidents who were unjustly imprisoned by the Soviet regime.

---

I thought her Gulag comment was in poor taste, and untrue.

I would suggest that you read the articles at this link for accurate information.Trust me no other website has this much authentic and accurate information than this. You know the irony of New Testament, that Christians can't even tell with certainty that what was the mother tongue of "Jesus?"Green doesn't show up well on the dark blue background. I've given your green text a different color background. --AdminThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:32 AMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:36 AMThis message has been edited by Admin, 04-25-2005 11:05 AMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 12:03 PM

---

"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

There are six famous books of Ahadeeth which are called Six Principle Works — or sometimes — ‘The Six Authentic Books.’ These six books of sahih Ahadeeth declared to be the best in terms of their accuracy, utility and general acceptance. ‘ — The Six Authentic Books’ consists of the following:Sahih Bukhari
Sahih Muslim
At-Tirmidhi
Abu Da’ud or Abu Dawud [Sunan]*
an-Nasa’i [Sunan]*
Ibn Majah* Sunan is a book in which there are Ahadeeth related to laws and orders namely Sunan Abu Dawud and Sunan an-Nasa’i.This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:35 AM

---

"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

Okay.So Moshe got it from GOD and that gives it some authority?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm going to insist that all religious works and views mentioned and discussed in this thread (and everywhere else on the discussion board) be treated with dignity and respect. I'm not singling anybody out (yet), but I've seen some uncomplimentary characterizations of both the Bible and the Koran, and this will stop.Further, some people can't seem to resist the habit of including a zinger in an otherwise fine piece of erudition. This must also cease.I'm going to begin by annotating violations that occur after this post, and if they continue then there will be temporary limitations imposed on the member's posting privileges.Please attend closely to the topic.

---

--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

quote:

---

Moses "spoke face to face with God." That's enough for me to explain it, but others add the fact that Moses was also highly educated in all the knowledge of the day:

---

So what? See the great difference there is between the TWO (Moses and Muhammad).

quote:

---

From intro to Genesis in my KJV: "Trained in the 'wisdom of the Egyptians,' (Acts 7:22) Moses was providentially prepared to understand available records, manuscripts and oral narratives. As a prophet to whom was granted the unusual privilege of unhurried hours of communion with God on Sinai, he was well equipped to record for all generations the Lord's portrayal of his activity through the ages."

---

Red doesn't show up well on the dark blue background. I've given your red text a different color background. --AdminThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:48 AMThis message has been edited by Admin, 04-25-2005 08:55 AM

---

"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

on compilation of Imam Bukhari Book of Hadith-'it took the noble writer a period of 16 years to gather the ahaadeeth and to write Bukhari Shareef which sets the date back to 217 A.H, as the year in which he started the compilation; Imam Bukhari (R.A) being merely 23 years of age.'read about Bukhari and further details of the Hadith:Central-Mosque.com redirector to the new design

It would be really really nice if even one person here would address a point I actually made, some of which are:The Bible IS concerned with witness accounts; the Koran is not.The Bible makes many references to the witnessing of key events; the Koran has no events to witness.The Bible's prophets identify themselves in real time and place and their prophecies in real time and place, to authenticate them; the Koran has only one prophet and it says nothing about his credentials.The Bible has multiple authors over 15 centuries, and they refer to each other as authorities; the Koran has one and only one author and no corroborating witness to his qualifications.Also, both books are said to have been authored by God but only the Bible quotes God Himself as speaking to many of its authors, as in "The Lord spoke to Moses" -- 80 times in the book of Numbers; as in "The word of the Lord came to me" -- all the prophets; Mohammed refers to Allah in the Koran but he personally spoke only to an angel he called "Gabriel."These are important facts concerning the authentication of the Bible versus the Koran. Just about everybody here is discussing something other than these facts.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 10:32 AM

Let us note that when I tried to discuss these issue in Message 31 the only point Faith chose to answer related to the Quran. The points I raised regarding the Pentateuch have yet to be addressed.