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Author | Topic: Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts | |||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But they are not Christian stories Faith, they are Jewish stories. And the Muslims did not displace the Christians. Christians, Jews and Muslims have lived in the middle East together all along. Christians and Jews helped Muhammad establish Islam.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
So lets get this straight. I point out that the Pentateuch is NOT interested in establishing that the author was a witness to the events, nor even that it was based on the direct testimony of witnesses. But somehow you think that we should assume otherwise because of the number of times the word "witness" appears in the Bible ? Well maybe someone is inventing rules, but it isn't me.
As for your "internal" evidence (added an hour after Sidelined replied to the message !), lets have a look at it. Exodus 17:14
14Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this in a book as a memorial and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven."
The book is not identified. There is no reason to even assume that it refers to any work that is still extant.
quote: i.e. 80 verses that do NOT identify Moses as the author of the Pentateuch. Having exhausted the Pentateuch without finding verses which establish Moses as the author we have the rest 2 chronicles 33:8
and I will not again remove the foot of Israel from the land which I have appointed for your fathers, if only they will observe to do all that I have commanded them according to all the law, the statutes and the ordinances given through Moses." Another failure - we KNOW that the law is supposed to have been revealed to Moses, that does not mean that Moses actually wrote the books of the Pentateuch. 35:6 meets the same objection. Ezra 6:18 refers to "the Book of Moses" - which only indicates that that terminology had come into use at the time of Ezra and could refer to a book ABOUT Moses. Just as the Books of Job and Jonah are ABOUT Job and Jonah. Mark 12:26 another reference to the Book of Moses Luke 16:29-31 doesn't refer to Moses writing a book either - only to the belief that Moses words were known - not how they had been transmitted. Luke 24:44 another reference to the "Law of Moses" John 1:17 another reference to the law being revealed to Moses - nothing about him writing a word of the actual books of the Pentateuch. 1 Corinthians 9:9 yet another reference to the "Law of Moses" So only 1 out of 89 verses mentions Moses writing ANYTHING. And that is an identified book. So much for the claim that there were specific references in the Pentateuch to Moses as author - even if I generously granted that the unnamed work in Exodus 17:14 was in fact Exodus itself (which it almost certainly is not) you would still only have one with the others being "the Lord spoke to Moses" which by no stretch of the imagination means "Moses wrote this book". So what EVIDENCE do you have that Moses actually wrote the Pentateuch ? Are we to conclude that the most we can say is that a few short sections of the Pentateuch might (or might not) have ultimately been derived from Moses writing - and then only because the Pentateuch describes Moses as writing those particular things and nothing else ? And if Moses is not the author of the Pentateuch then any claims that it has authority derived from his supposed status as a witness are null and void.
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Checkmate Inactive Member |
quote: Poor Faith, our crybaby: Playing victim by disregarding historical facts. We will talk about this, some other time. I owe you one (a juicy one).
Checkmate, last warning. Cease the personal comments or take a one day suspension of posting privileges. --Admin Let us talk about plagiarization in the NT, and exmaine few examples below:
Mark 015:034 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Copied from Psalms 22:1) Matthew027:046 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Copied from Psalms 22:1) Copied From! Psalms022:001 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Cf Luke023:046 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. (Copied from Psalms 31.5) Copied From! Psalms031:005 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth. John019:028 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. (Copied from Psalms 69:21) 019:029Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 019:030When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (Echoes Job 19:25-27) Copied From! Psalms069:021 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. Job 019:025For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 019:026And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 019:027Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. All the alleged words attributed to Jesus before his alleged death are COPIED from Old Testament, mainly the Psalms 22:1, by the way it is part of same Psalms from which the theme of dividing Jesus’ clothes (as mentioned in all crucifixion accounts) comes from i.e. Psalms 22:18! 022:018They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. Checkmate This message has been edited by Admin, 04-25-2005 09:07 PM "An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
The recent (and not so recent?) activity seems to be largely the exchange of "one-liners". In my judgement, we are piling up a bunch of micro-thoughts, when we should be having fewer but better thought out messages.
Going to give this one a short term closure to let things cool down. I will be around my computer for a couple of hours. If the topic is left closed after that, I request that another admin consider reopening it. Adminnemooseus
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3976 Joined: |
Now how about a few good messages, rather than a bunch of poor ones?
Adminnemooseus New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures Thread Reopen Requests Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
But they are not Christian stories Faith, they are Jewish stories.
========= Christians regard the whole Bible as Christian. We are "grafted into" Israel. However, the Koran has done the same with both OT and NT texts. ======= And the Muslims did not displace the Christians. Christians, Jews and Muslims have lived in the middle East together all along. Christians and Jews helped Muhammad establish Islam. ==========Yeah, by being slaughtered for the purpose, paying tax for the right to go on living, and being treated like dogs they sure did help Muhammed establish Islam. This is off topic so don't expect *evidence" from me. There's plenty to be had without my help.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sermon on the Mount. Yes, as you say, "we have the Bible to tell us it happened and that's it." If you don't find it credible, I'm tired of trying to prove it. I find it credible as is. No amount of argument has accomplished anything here and obviously none is going to. I'm just an arrogant ignorant hard cold bigoted intolerant stupid YEC. Yup, the Bible is IT. Take it or leave it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If you mean Jewish writings, I expect that for heaven's sake. Jesus was Jewish, in the best Jewish traditions. And if you mean the OT, Moses was educated in all the Egyptian lore. Why shouldn't there be some overlap? That doesn't prove plagiarism. But the Koran is obviously a self-serving rewrite.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 08:22 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
3. Therefore, we can conclusively agree that for humans to procreate, existance of previous generations is a must. Normally, but Jesus' birth was a miracle. With God all things are possible.
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mick Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
Hi admin,
I'm really chuffed that my muslim friends turned up for this debate. I'm learning a lot. Can we try to keep it open as long as decorum will permit? Although the tone is slightly agressive, I think the content of lots of these posts are very interesting. Cheers Mick
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
First do you recognize that the Koran rewrites are obvious ripoffs or not?
Then I'll say similarities between the Bible and other cultural productions do not have any of the marks of a ripoff, merely shared cultural knowledge.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You forgot to dot six i's and cross 9 t's. Therefore your post is a failure.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Old Testament prophesied Jesus' would experience being forsaken by God for those who believe on Him, and He fulfilled the prophecies. But of course the Koran has no prophecies besides having no witnesses to anything including the claims of its author, so I understand why you have to make up lies to pretend they never happened in the Bible. Same as Higher Critics do who redate Old Testament books because their prophecies were actually fulfilled. You only fool yourself.
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: They do not occur within a historical framework but are just stuck in here and there, which I already pointed out, and many of them are lifted from the Bible and rewritten to suit Muslim prejudices and deny the original Biblical record. They teach nothing about the character of God and His relation to humanity, as the Bible history does, they are just there to convince Muslims the Bible is wrong and they are right. I think you probably want to avoid making assessments of the relative authenticity of the Koran and Bible. We're just trying to establish some common criteria for judging the authenticity of eyewitness accounts in religious texts. Okay, so now let's take your criteria and get a bit more rigorous. I ask the Moslems here to also assess your criteria, but I'll examine them now myself one by one:
In summary, the only criteria you provided that I can agree with is that older accounts are more likely to be authentic than newer ones. Notice I didn't say the older account is the authentic one. It is possible, even likely in many cases, that neither account is authentic. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22502 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: Sermon on the Mount. Yes, as you say, "we have the Bible to tell us it happened and that's it." If you don't find it credible, I'm tired of trying to prove it. I find it credible as is. No amount of argument has accomplished anything here and obviously none is going to. I'm just an arrogant ignorant hard cold bigoted intolerant stupid YEC. Yup, the Bible is IT. Take it or leave it. Faith, are we having a serious discussion here or not? If you're feeling unable, for whatever reason, to hold up your end of a serious discussion then take a break, but please do not waste people's time with non-answers. It seems like you bounce back and forth between serious discussion and venting frustration. Occasionally venting frustration is fine, we're all human, but one shouldn't make it a daily habit. Now let's reset. We're trying to establish by what criteria we should assess the validity of eyewitness accounts in the Bible. In my Message 115, the one that you replied to here, I noted the contrast between ancient events in the Bible for which there is corroborating evidence (the Sennacherib campaign again King Hezekiah) and those for which there is no corroborating evidence (Jesus's Sermon on the Mount). I also noted that the amount of evidence required depends upon the degree of certainty required. In any area of study there will always be some things we can establish better than others, and there will also be some things we can never establish at all. There can't be equal certainty of everything. There can be no doubt that there is far more evidence for the Sennacherib campaign than for the Sermon on the Mount, and the criteria we establish in this discussion should enable us to place eyewitnessed events into a hierarchy of certainty. I discussed the criteria you offered earlier in my previous post. --Percy
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