Is America a Christian nation?

Is it?

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Originally posted by nos482:

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Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Is it?

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No, it isn't. It is a country where the dominate religious belief system is Christianity, but it is not a theocracy.

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For the USA to be a Christian Nation it would be the same as Iran is an Islamic Nation where all of the laws are based on their religious laws.

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For example; If the USA were a theocracy other beliefs would not be tolerated, there would be no freedom of speech, and most sciences would be outlawed as being heresies and blasphemous. There would be no truth allowed other than that of the State's religion.

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Most of us here would have been "questioned" by the Inquisition long ago and most likely put to death as well.

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[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-13-2002]

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************************************************Hi nos,
I brought the thread up because of an argument I am having with tokyojim. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though is that both Britain and Germany have state sponsored religions without the effects you mentioned. It actually has had the beneficial effect that most people stopped believing (i.e. think for themselves) or at the very least fundamentalism is not so rampant...and there are thriving communities of muslims, atheists, etc.Not that I advocate a theocracy in the US. The people advocate it would most likely be in favor of all the negative things you mentioned.Cheers,
Mammuthus

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Originally posted by Joe Meert:

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I brought the thread up because of an argument I am having with tokyojim. I agree with most of what you say. One thing though is that both Britain and Germany have state sponsored religions without the effects you mentioned. It actually has had the beneficial effect that most people stopped believing (i.e. think for themselves) or at the very least fundamentalism is not so rampant...and there are thriving communities of muslims, atheists, etc.

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Not that I advocate a theocracy in the US. The people advocate it would most likely be in favor of all the negative things you mentioned.

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JM: I happened to live in Norway for a year which also has a state sponsored religion. The effects you mentioned (most people are not religious) are also seen there. You did not mention some of the negative effects of SSR. The result I was most depressed by was the cost of a beer! We still have some of these religious laws in the US. For example 'blue laws' and the liquor laws in many states. Fortunately, the US decided to limit access to beer on Sundays, but not jack up the price. Norway does both.

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Cheers

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Joe Meert

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*******************************************************Hi Joe,
High beer (and all other alcoholic beverages)prices is a general problem in scandanavian countries. I found the prices outrageous in Denmark and Sweden as well. I was in Helsinki a few months ago and it was also really expensive....and lousy.German beer is not so expensive, comes in about 4,000 different varieties and is really good. There is one festival during lent where the monks brew Starkbier (Nockerberg festival) that tastes really good and has about 10% alcohol. I have never seen so many trashed people. I assume the monks were so depressed being monks that they found away to lose consciousness completely in an enjoyable and tasty way ....Cheers,
Mammuthus

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Originally posted by joz:

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Originally posted by nos482:
But they are still not theocracies. Do they call themselves Chrisitian Nations or do they call themselves democracies?

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Actually we are not a democracy we`re a constitutional monarchy I think.....

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************************************To respond to nos question, I don't know anyone who calls Germany a christian nation. However, political parties all over europe have such designations i.e the CDU is the christian democratic union. It is largely meaningless as one of the most well know members of the party is jewish.regarding joz question,
I think Britain is like Spain and is a constitutional monarchy. But what exactly is the relation of the church of England to the state? Do you have to pay taxes that go to the church?I actually started the thread because I have seen creationists/fundies use the argument that America is a christian nation and that the founders were all christians who did not explicitly want a separation of church and state...however, none of the creationists have addressed this thread cheers,
Mammuthus

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
I answered TJ's assertion about the US being a Christian nation in this post. Evidently, he skipped over that bit in his reply.

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Hi Quetzal,
TJ skipped A LOT of things in both our posts...and now he is not posting at all.He really did not like the post about why creationism is like believing storks bring babies that I found on the web from a (Finnish I believe) gynacologist ...maybe he is starting a storkist movement in Japan?Thanks for the link to your post.cheers,
Mammuthus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nos482:
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mammuthus:however, none of the creationists have addressed this thread cheers,
Mammuthus[/B][/QUOTE]Maybe you should invite Wordswordman into this discussion. He is a TRUE believer and will jump through hops (Actually he'll bring in the entire circus) to make everything you say fit his religious beliefs. And he is in total denial of anything you present to him in the contray as well. Hi nos,
I just saw your exchange with him...I laughed my butt off..."the bible confirms the truth of the bible because the bible confirms that it is true" argument....maybe he is related to tokyojim....Im always up for a circus [This message has been edited by nos482, 09-16-2002][/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Brad,
I am not ignoring you but I did not understand your post or if you had a question.By the way, I went to Cornell to Cheers,
Mammuthus

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Originally posted by Brad McFall:
In all honesty based on yesterday I would have to say this was in IRELAND not my ire of Cornell in this land where one on the grounds would have been tolerated to do both spectrums in the discussion of c/e which paste and clicks made posssible even when I was a student but for some secular reason that is not as clear as forcing a mac on and ibm student etc Lynn abel refused even to this day to comment when the pasted click beetle speaks.

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Again I think that If we could stop calling in the US_America then may be the ant- reality that it got for me would become the absurd philsophy I did not even think when I was still innocent nor Abe licoln. Wheat backs are worth 2cnets.

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Hi forgivenF:
however, i'm not sure what the term 'christian nation' means... the usa, for example, is made up of its citizens (much like the church is made up of individuals)... usa = citizens and citizens = usa ... so no, not every citizen is a christian and the usa isn't totally a christian nation... but a large segment of the population lays claim to christianity, and who am i to say they aren't?M: I actually started this thread because a guy calling himself Wordswordsman implied that the US is exclusively a Christian nation and that freedom implied freedom to be a christian and nothing else...of course, the same guy claimed he had inherent properties of a deity and that he spoke personally for Jesus Christ...and that I as a scientist and atheist am a sorcerer (I put on a robe once but did not really look like Gandalf) I just wanted some more opinions on the subject as this topic comes up now and then in evolution versus creationism discussions particularly when it relates to teaching in public school.Also, as the EU is currently formulating a constitution, there is a discussion to inlcude a statement that the EU is a Christian organization...this is being used by politicians as a way of justifying the exclusion of Turkey from the EU.Cheers,
M

hi mammuthusi don't think any nation, any government, is "christian" in the sense wordssmithman seems to mean... i think (christian worldview) all governments are "of the world" thus can't really be called christianM: Hi forgiven...I don't take Wordswordsman's view of christianity or the government as representative. But I have heard the argument before as a justification for..well just about anything.f:
i didn't read this guy's posts but i will say that any thought of a christian or muslim or whatever nation, governed on a theocratic basis, is simply of the world and will in the end commit more atrocities than those that make no such claim...M: I would only suggest reading his posts if you like Hannibal Lechter movies...the guy was pretty extreme. In any case, when a government claims superiority of its membership over others for religious reasons or non-religious i.e. Stalinist Russia, atrocities will follow.f:
i don't know what he meant by 'inherent properties' of a deity, but i sometimes say that but mean we have all the attriubes of deity, by virtue of being created in God's image... that doesn't make us gods, however... i look purty dang spiffy in a robe myself...M: He was taking it a bit further...and claimed that all other christians were wrong and he was right and that he spoke directly for Jesus...I think robes will be the next big "in" stylef:
that's a more difficult question, imho... while i believe what i do about 'christian nation', i do believe the us gov't was formed on christian principles, but the founders recognized that if any one group (or denomination) was in the majority they had to rule with the rights of the minority in mind..M: I am not sure it was formed entirely on christian principles but I agree with you take on the founders intentions.f:
as for school curriculum, i see nothing wrong with putting forth a 'theory of evolution' OR a 'theory of creation'... what's the problem?M: The problem is that there is no theory of creation. Without a testable and falsifiable hypothesis, creationism is not science and should not be taught as such. It would be better placed in a class on religion or history of religion. That is the crux of the problem. And the problem is not limited to the biological sciences...we should not be teaching non-testable or non-falsifiable hypothesis in a basic physics lecture or chemistry either.Also, as the EU is currently formulating a constitution, there is a discussion to inlcude a statement that the EU is a Christian organization...this is being used by politicians as a way of justifying the exclusion of Turkey from the EU.Cheers,M[/QUOTE]f:
hmmm i hadn't heard this... i think (tho i try to stay out of political discussions) it's fine to form a union with certain standards, certain criteria all members have in common.. but religion has no part of that, imo... money standards, legal rights, human rights, etc are all perfectly fine... to attempt to govern religion by fiat will lead to disasterM: They are actually using religious objections (and it is not from all member states to be fair) to cover political and economic objections...not to mention the xenophobic wings of the various parties (many of which are currently in the various european governments) that win votes by bashing foreigners of any type. By trying to claim the EU as a christian only club, they hope to exclude the Turks without actually saying why they don't want them in. All very cynical...but that is politics.cheers,
M

[QUOTE]Originally posted by joz:
[B]

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Originally posted by Mammuthus:
Also, as the EU is currently formulating a constitution, there is a discussion to inlcude a statement that the EU is a Christian organization...this is being used by politicians as a way of justifying the exclusion of Turkey from the EU.

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Cheers,
M

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The really surreal thing is that recently one country stood up for Turkey and argued the case for Turkeys admission....That country was Greece....Greece??!!!M: LOL! I missed that...ah well, EU politics are profoundly comical..especially debates about the CAP...I guess next they will assign Berlusconi as head of the EU anti-corruption office

I would also like to add to Quetzal's definition that when you begin with a hypothesis it must be both testable and falsifiable if it is ever to develope into a theory.As to the theory of gravity being overturned..yes it is possible.However, you cannot state "theory of creation" as you are not past the hypothesis stage. And to even be considered as a hypothesis you have to state a testable and falsifiable hypothesis which thus far no creationist has ever been able to propose. You cannot even begin to attempt to gather data or develop predicitions or experiments to obtain supporting evidence at this stage.This is not the exclusive domain of the biological sciences but of chemistry, physics etc. as well.As Quetzal pointed out, theories are not immutable. If they were, nobody would continue to study in those disciplines for which theories exist. For example, in Darwin's time genetics was not an established field (Mendel was working on the principles but Darwin never took them into account in developing his theory). As the science of genomics progresses, the data is incorporated into the theory and in cases where there is a disparity (such as the phenomenon of horizontal transfer), research is concentrated to see if it really is a disparity or whether it can be explained by the theory as it stands.Sorry to butt in on you and Quetzal.cheers,
M