Moral Argument for God

Whether or not there is a supernatural Being is a separate question from the God/moral question. After all, God=good is a modern notion, the Greeks and Romans and to a certain extent, the Hebrews didn't always equate goodness and morality with God/gods/Yahweh. The concept of God is something we (modern humans) have constructed according to our understanding of what is good/moral. Does no one notice that God and good are the same word, after all? I don't know Hebrew, but I would be quite surprised if "Yahweh" means "good" in Hebrew. In Genesis God proclaims the creation to be good, but much of the rest of the OT doesn't exactly portray God as good - unless you think jealousy, spite ("God hardened his heart")vengefulness, demanding human sacrifice (to "test" Abraham)and killing of innocents in battle, etc. are good.

"How it got started (human morality), nobody knows although there are all sorts of speculative ideas."It evolved (from pre-human characters) like everything else, as did our concept of God. Do you have any explanation that fits the evidence better? Do you think that animals don't have morality (If think this, you either have never owned a dog or aren't a very good observer).

Well, I don't know exactly what is going on in my dog's mind either but yet I can tell when he wants something from me, when he is happy, when he is sad, when he is embarrassed. And I know he sneaks up on the couch when I am not around. A mated pair of female and male penguins take turns protecting the egg and later the chick. Sometimes during a storm the female loses her chick and occasionally in her grief she will try to steal a chick from another female. Penguins nearby will join in to prevent the theft. Do animals have a sense of morality? You tell me.

"But like I said, they are internal rules that we follow and as such have certain absolute principals."It's those principals with the absolute principles that make the best principals.

And how do we decide what is "mindless instinct" and what is "free choice"? I am quite certain my dog's leaping on the couch is a choice based on whether he thinks he can get away with it - not mindless instinct. As for the penguins - not all grieving penguins choose to try to steal a chick - it is relatively rare - and not all bystander penguins choose to defend the "victim". So, again, how do you decide if it is "mindless instinct" or choice? It seems to me that you are starting with the premise that animals are controlled by mindless instinct but people are controlled by free choice. Is that premise based on scientific understanding or anthropocentric bias?This message has been edited by deerbreh, 07-27-2005 04:45 PM

I beg to differ with you. You have answered the question, assuming it was not a false dichotomy. If it had been scientific understanding, you would be able to make some kind of scientific argument.

"It's not a scientific argument."(instinct vs morality)There are many ethologists who would disagree with you. They certainly consider the study of animal behavior a science and believe they can separate instinct from learned behavior.

Well, my dog (again, I know - sorry) certainly sleeps. Dreams also. And this proves he is conscious when he is awake? How does this relate to the question of morality and instinct?

"The action would be merely a response to a stimulus, like a bush leaning toward the sunlight."Well a guy named Cleve Backster thinks plants have consciouness, for what it is worth."The research by Cleve Backster documented in his book "Primary Perception" (Primaryperception.com Is For Sale) describes how cells in plants as well in humans respond to stimuli from the environment. He has measured the cellular memory of plants with plant electrodes. He proves that if for example a violent act happens in the presence of a plant, the plant will remember the person who did the violent act and will "react to the person whenever the person enters the room."
Sacredtransformation.com

Well my dog certainly has a sense of morality as reflected by my morality - I think it is wrong for him to plant his hairy butt on people furniture and he knows it so he doesn't do it as long as I am around but when I leave all bets are off.