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EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒

Importance of Innerrancy to Moderate Christians

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Author Topic:   Importance of Innerrancy to Moderate Christians
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 33 of 158 (335157)
07-25-2006 12:28 PM 		Reply to: Message 30 by AlienInvader
07-25-2006 10:40 AM

AlienInvader writes:
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salvation isn't supposed to be a "lesson" it's supposed to be a promise.
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Not at all. What has already been given can not be "promised". It can only be used.
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A tale, a parable even, isn't good enough to qualify as a holy text, pandering in the salvation of souls.
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And yet the Bible is chock-full of parables, and some of them are explicitly designated as parables.
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Take the parable of the prodigal son, for example. Though the son turned his back on his father, his father welcomed him back with open arms. There was never any promise of that. It was inherent in the father-son relationship described.
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This message is a reply to:
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 Message 37 by AlienInvader, posted 07-25-2006 1:37 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 42 of 158 (335185)
07-25-2006 2:05 PM 		Reply to: Message 37 by AlienInvader
07-25-2006 1:37 PM

AlienInvader writes:
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my issue is that, the bible itself isn't designated as one big parable....
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And nobody is suggesting that it is "all parable". One difference between an inerrantist and a moderate is that the moderate recognizes that there are sections that are the equivalent of parables but are not designated specifically as parables. The moderate recognizes that a parable doesn't have to say, "This is a parable," in flashing neon lights.
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a large portion of the recounting is presented as truth...
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Another distinction that inerrantists fail to make is between "presented as truth" and actual, verifiable "truth". I have a book which purports to be the "true" biography of James Bond. One has to examine it fairly closely to determine whether or not it was intended as work of fiction.
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nonfiction if you will; or that's how it's taken.
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"How it's taken" is pretty much irrelevant. Any work of fiction can be "taken" as non-fiction by somebody who doesn't read it critically.
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If a book contains useful information, advice, etc., what difference does it make if everything in the book is literally true? What difference does it make who wrote it?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 43 of 158 (335188)
07-25-2006 2:09 PM 		Reply to: Message 41 by Phat
07-25-2006 2:03 PM

Phat writes:
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Jesus, on the other hand needs to be real because He represents an origin of thought.
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Why does a "representation" have to be "real"?
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A painting of an apple represents a real apple, but is it a "real" apple?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 48 of 158 (335268)
07-25-2006 5:55 PM 		Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
07-25-2006 4:46 PM

Re: IMHO
Phat writes:
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A message is only as real as the author.
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Why? In art, the "message" often transcends what the artist consciously intends.
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There is no such thing as a message without an author.
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Why not? We can receive messages that were not consciously sent - body language is an example.
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There are disagreements about whether Jesus was a messenger sent from God or whether He was an author of the message that he brought.
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Author/messenger makes no difference to the value or validity of the message itself.
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... one could argue that IF the humans were inspired by God as a source, the differecne would be important.
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One could also argue that the message is more valid if it comes from our fellow humans than from an alien source - a source that might not understand what it is like to be us. The incarnation of Jesus reassures us that the message is not just an edict from on high - it's from one of us.
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The innerrency group may counter by asserting that just as water cannot rise higher than its source, human philosophy can never really bring humans to a higher level than they are intrinsically at.
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And why would we want to be at "a higher level"?
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Jesus forgave sins. No human has the authority to forgive the sins of another, apart from those done to them individually.
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Individual forgiveness is the only forgiveness that matters, the only forgiveness that effects our lives.
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Remember that the message is: God has forgiven (or God will forgive - same difference).
It's done. It's grace. It has no place in the equation.
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Jesus was human, however. Do you believe He also was of Divine origin?
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I believe it doesn't matter.
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If we believe the message based on authority, we haven't really assimilated the message.
If we "obey" just because the "author" is God, we have the wrong motivation.
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Would that make a difference as to the importance of the message He brought?
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When you receive a message, does it matter if it came by e-mail, voice-mail or snail-mail?
Which would be more "important"?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 101 of 158 (336489)
07-29-2006 8:48 PM 		Reply to: Message 98 by AlienInvader
07-29-2006 8:01 PM

Re: Two important questions needs to be answered.
AlienInvader writes:
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I just can't... swallow the idea, of a central text of a system, the instruction manual if you will, that has holes in it.
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Every text has holes in it. Are you saying you can't "swallow" anything?
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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 106 of 158 (336892)
07-31-2006 11:02 AM 		Reply to: Message 105 by AlienInvader
07-31-2006 10:33 AM

AlienInvader writes:
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it can have tiny tiny holes, not holes i can stick my finger through.
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Can you give us a better idea of what kind of "measure" that is?
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How would you compare the holes in the Bible with, say, the holes in the telephone book? Or your car's ownwer's manual? Or Treasure Island? Relatively, how reliable are they?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by AlienInvader, posted 07-31-2006 10:33 AM AlienInvader has replied
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 Message 121 by AlienInvader, posted 08-01-2006 10:22 AM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 133 of 158 (337219)
08-01-2006 12:30 PM 		Reply to: Message 121 by AlienInvader
08-01-2006 10:22 AM

AlienInvader writes:
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at least it doesn't have anachronisms, does it?
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I'm sure it does.
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Jesus' birth itself is something of an anachronism, isn't it?
Was He born in year x of Y's reign, or while Z was still alive?
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But the question here is "What difference does it make?"
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Does an anachronism in a story make that story less valuable?
I would think that the true value of any story transcends time.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by AlienInvader, posted 08-01-2006 10:22 AM AlienInvader has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by AlienInvader, posted 08-01-2006 6:06 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 142 of 158 (337283)
08-01-2006 8:04 PM 		Reply to: Message 139 by AlienInvader
08-01-2006 6:06 PM

AlienInvader writes:
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i'd prefer my textbooks to have less holes than say, shakespearean plays.
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Hmm... I can remember when Shakepeare's plays were used as textbooks. What's the difference?
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one is meant to guide my actions; the other to guide my thoughts.
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I don't see the dichotomy there either. Don't your thoughts guide your actions? Can't you think your way around a few holes?
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An inerrant Bible may be a comfort for non-thinking people, but thinking people are able to separate the wheat from the chaff. They can get some value out of the Bible even if everything in it isn't perfect.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 143 of 158 (337284)
08-01-2006 8:07 PM 		Reply to: Message 141 by iano
08-01-2006 7:47 PM

Re: Recognizing truth
iano writes:
​
I imagine that EvC is the perfect home for an argumentitive, self-righteous nature.
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Welcome home.
​
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 7:47 PM iano has replied
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 Message 145 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:13 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 147 of 158 (337294)
08-01-2006 8:26 PM 		Reply to: Message 145 by iano
08-01-2006 8:13 PM

iano writes:
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Thats what I said.
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As Tuco said: "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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Don't waste bandwidth with long goodbyes.
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Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 8:13 PM iano has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by iano, posted 08-01-2006 9:01 PM ringo has replied
  
ringo
Member (Idle past 440 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 149 of 158 (337322)
08-01-2006 11:09 PM 		Reply to: Message 148 by iano
08-01-2006 9:01 PM

iano writes:
​
Who the fuco is tuco...?
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That's the best joke you've done in nearly 4000 posts.
​
Here's a website that might help you in your quest for knowledge.
​
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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