Acceptance, Evolutionists vs. Creationists

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Looking into the mindset of a creationist or a evolutionist is it fair to say that...

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Creationists
Are more willing to accept what they have been told?

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Absolutely.Many religions actively discourage curiosity and the asking of too many "difficult" questions.

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Have a more intense need for purpose?

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Not neccessarily "more intense need" than someone who accepts the evidence for evolution.Your statement seems to imply that those who accept the evidence for evolution do not tend to have purpose in their lives, which is not true at all.

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Need the comfort of a supreme being?

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Absolutely.I would add that Creationists seem to be lazy thinkers; it's easier to take the Bible literally that to try to figure out what the message of a non-literal interpretation of the Bible is, and how it relates to one's life.

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Evolutionists

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Are more of the 'well I want to take it apart and see how it works' type?

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Yes, probably.

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Fear death less?

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I don't know that they fear death less, but I think they are less likely to manage their anxiety by believing in something just to comfort themselves.In short, they are more comfortable not knowing the unknowable.

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Are not willing to believe they are not in control of their life?

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Nobody is in total control of their life.There is no way of telling the difference between "god's hand" and random events.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 05-30-2004 08:49 AM

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

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If this is acceptance I want no part of this. So far all this has been is belittling creationists as children unable to accept that Santa isn't real!

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Who said anything about acceptance?I have very little patience for willful ignorance.I think that the Santa analogy is a pretty good one for the worst kind of Creationist.

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If they unquestionably believed what they were originally told they would have no need for apologetics.

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I agree to a point.However, I don't think Creationist apologitics is about exploring problems or questioning anything in an honest way. It's about plugging holes with whatever they can find.

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Again, they're not babies that can't accept that Santa isn't real.

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But, Creationists don't accept the demonstrated reality of nature. They reject and ignore hundreds of years of research by hundreds of thousands of scientists in spite of enormous amounts of evidence just because it makes them uncomfortable.That seems pretty childish to me; living in a fantasy land of denial.

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I'd say more like they believe they have a purpose, which is more than I can objectively say about most atheists I know.

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Creationism is not about having a purpose.Faith or religion might be about having a purpose.Creationism is all about Bible-worship and the abuse and distortion of science to promote religion.

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Need the comfort of a supreme being?
Maybe, or maybe they just happen to believe in one.

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Come on, don't you think that the promise of eternal life in a heavenly paradise is a major part of why a lot of people believe?Doing the right thing because it is a reward unto itself is not stressed in Christianity; you do the right thing becasue God wants you to, and will reward you if you obey and will punish you if you do not.Which is a more mature view?

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Fear death more?

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Most of them are pretty uneasy with their opinion that they'll simply cease to exist. So yes.

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On the surface, you might be right.However, the fact is that believers fear death so much that they accept/manufacture an entire mythology and doctrine designed to avoid death altogether.I now refer you to my sig quote...This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-03-2004 08:39 AM

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Critical thinkers and skeptics don't create answers just to manage their anxiety--Karla McLaren

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No. Me and B2P are just believers, not manufacturers.

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Notice that I wrote accept/manufacture.You have accepted some of the mythology that you were exposed to in your life.Besides, singe B2P was speaking of Creationists/Christians as a group, so was I.A really big part of Christianity is the idea of an eternal afterlife where you will be rewarded or punished.

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It's funny how I am supposed to fear death. It's funny, I have to repeat it a million times a year, I am not afraid of death. If it was just the end - great, I don't even mind being brown bread, it's hell that bothers me.

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Isn't "fear of death" and "fear of eternal damnation" pretty closely related?

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So in any case, I wish it was as simple as "the end". And don't say "Ahh, you believe cos you're frightened of hell" COS that's just as equally an annoying statement. I guess I just don't like having this "he believes for comfort" generalization hanging over me, it's only those who don't have or understand faith that say these things. If anything, I doubt when I need comfort.

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I used to have some faith, mike, when I was young. I certainly understood and believed in the heaven/hell thing.Anyway, it's a little too easy for you to fall back upon the "it's a faith thing, you wouldn't understand" escape.If the fear of not knowing what happens to us when we die/fear of death wasn't a huge part of belief in the supernatural, why does some kind of afterlife appear in most of the world religions?I mean, it just makes sense.You have accepted that God exists, that he is the God of the Bible, that christ is his son, etc.

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1.They take it on faith that what they believe is what happened.

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Then they are deliberately ignoring reality. It's really that simple. the more intelligent ones display the most amazing mental gymnastics to maintain their faith in spite of reality. I find it amazing that any good god would want this kind of waste of intellectual ability.

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Modern science is accurate, but everything, including reality, is tentative.

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Please do not go all post-modern on me. Just because someone believes something doesn't make it real.Some versions of reality are more reliable than others, and the reality of nature as described in the body of knowledge and method known as science has been the most reliable version we have ever had.

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With that in mind, I don't see what's wrong with faith.

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Nothing, but there is a great deal wrong with Creationism. Creationism requires people to lie to themselves, over and over again. It essentially forces people to make themselves believe the Biological equivalent of the sky is not blue, that objects fall up, that germs do not cause disease, etc. etc.

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Now while philosophically that works, if they try to debate science using philosophy(which is pointless because philosophy is so much cooler anyway) then they're just wasting time.

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Almost to a person, all the Philosopy majors I have ever known have been arrogant, insufferable pretentious gits.

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2.Another possibility is that they just don't know that certain things work certain ways.

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...and their Creationist religion actively lies to them and actively discourages them from learning.

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They've been given all these copies of 'Darwin on Trial' etc and just figure it doesn't work. Trusting the mentor figures who give this stuff to them is not a bad thing; so this is by no means their fault.

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Accepting authority without question is a bad thing. It is most certainly their fault if they are adults.

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Maybe people believe things for other reasons and not just fear?

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I never said it was the only reason, just that it was a major reason for Christians having faith. Otherwise, why would it be so very prevalent a theme all throughout the bible, especially the NT?

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And I dunno if that's so much avoiding death as it is embracing it? If they don't have to be afraid of death then they aren't afraid of dying, which is death.

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Um, but by believing that there is everlasting life after death, you aren't embracing death, you are denying it altogether.I mean, there's John 3:16, one of the most famous passages from the Bible, which many people would consider the central message of Christianity: This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-05-2004 08:30 PM

If a Creationist believes that certain things in the bible happened exactly the way they are written, with full knowledge and acceptance that they utterly contradict the evidence, I have no objection.That kind of creationost is rare, possibly nonexistant.The only kind of Creationist I have ever known is the kind who believes that certain things in the bible happened exactly the way they are written, but is willfully ignorant of the contradictory evidence in nature, and who also claim that science actually supports their religious beliefs and or the evidence does not support an ancient Earth, biological Evolution, etc.When confronted with real scientific evidence, the mental gymnastics begin, or they simply run off.These are the vast majority of the Creationists I have encountered over the years, and these people certainly seem to be lying to themselves.

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Also, you were telling me not to go all post-modern on you, but if I were to accept without question that the sky is blue then that would be questioning authority(my own senses)!

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I am not sure what this means.I was trying to keep you from saying that all versions of reality have equal validity, because they do not.Some versions of the reality of nature, including those held by the majority of the Creationists I have encountered, is wrong to a greater or lesser degree. The difference is, if you get to the point where you question everything, you end up at a point where you cannot know anything.Whereas, if you question and test "authority" you put yourself in a position to know the real world better.If these people never, ever question the authority that tells them that they must believe this or that about nature, then they are either brainwashed or intellectually lazy.I don't think that most of them are brainwashed. They have been indoctrinated, which is a different thing. I am sorry, but I just don't buy this.Show me those Christians who like the whole sacrifice and trial part of their religion but really wish that they didn't have to spend eternity in paradise basking in the love of God.Come on, B2P!Humans fear death because it is a great unknown.Christianity promises eternal life in paradise after death as a major theme of the religion.People embrace Christianity in large part because it eases their fear of death, assuring them that Earthly death is not really the end, and that if they follow the rules they will get a great reward in the afterlife.Why won't you accept this when it is so obviously true? Certainly other factors affect Christians reasons for believing, but to deny that this is not a major component is pretty silly.

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I have known very few of the ones you describe here.

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Stick around here for a few years, and read the ICR and AiG websites. You will begin to understand what many of us learned long ago.

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However, the willful ignorance is still not quite denial, just choosing not to know something. You might choose not to know what's in my gym bag, but does that mean you're in denial of what's in it?

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It is a weak faith that depends upon ignorance to maintain it.

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If they never hear any opposing viewpoint to begin with, why question it? I think it's safe to say that you can't expect someone to question something without shown an alternate point of view

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This would be true if these people never heard of Evolution at all.The thing is, Creationism is built upon the idea that because Evolution is wrong, a particular interpretation of certain parts of the Christian Bible is right.People have to have heard of Evolution if they are Creationists, by definition.Their fault lies in not ever reading anything by any Biologist or any other scientist in it's original form; they simply take what they are spoon fed by the Creationist liars.This makes them gullible fools who accept authority without question.

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I assume you don't like those annoying PT cruisers that look like Volkswagons with brain tumors, but you're firm in your belief that they exist so you can't un-believe them just cause you don't like them.

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Ah, but my reasons for believing PT Cruisers exist are evidence-based and can be independently verified without me, so it would be quite irrational for me to disbelieve in their existence.The same cannot be said of any religious belief. They are not verifyable by an outside observer, and are not based upon evidence.Therefore, there is no difference between the belief that the Christian God is the one true god and the belief that Zeus is the leader of a whole pantheon of gods.

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If mankind were so repulsed by the unknown there wouldn't be science or rockets that fly to the moon, now would there?

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...except that these things are dealing with the natural world and are therefore knowABLE.What happens after we die is, and will probably always be, unknowable.

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Almost as major as God punishes evil and that Jesus preaches kindness to all, huh?

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These are major themes, too, yes, but the idea that good Christians will not die but spend eternity in heaven with God is just as major a theme and is the big reward at the end of a life of struggle and sacrifice.Isn't that the reason Christ dies on the cross; so that humankind could have eternal life?Are you actually saying that the reason for the Crucifiction, that Jesus gave his life for our sins so that we could have eternal life, isn't a major theme of Christianity?

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Truth is, with the possibility of no afterlife in mind, I'd say I'm just more likely to spread kindness and make my life worth something as it's the only one I've got. And guess what Christianity tells us to do while we're down here?

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Guess what pretty much all religions and secular humanism, too, tell us to do while we're "down here"?Exactly the same thing.

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Granted I don't know much about the patterns. I know many many people have claimed to fit them with the evolutionary theory. Nothing wrong with this.

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Actually, there would be a great deal wrong with this if scientists actually worked this way.Evidence found in nature is not "fit" into any theory.This is backwards.A theory is produced, strenthened, or modified by evidence, not the other way around.Darwin didn't just come up with the ToE out of thin air one day, and every Biologist since then hasn't been looking for evidence to "fit" the theory.The Evidence gave rise to the theory in the first place, and each subsequent discovery and observation either supports the validity of the explanation of why those facts appear as they do (theory), or they contradict the explanation (theory).

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Right, I know... you don't need to do this because evolution is a fact. Sigh... I wonder who challenges authority more: creationists or evolutionists.

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Hmm, let's see...Scientists win Nobel prizes for making new discoveries that overturn past research.Creationists will never, ever question the validity of or change their interpretation of the Bible, no matter what the evidence in nature is or how much it contradicts that interpretation.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-09-2004 08:54 AM

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so the Jews and Christians grabed every neat celebration that looked like fun. From Mardes Gras to Easter, Thanksgiving to Christmas, if there was a party, we wanted in.

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Well, wasn't it more that these pagan celebrations were allowed by and then changed by the Christians who were trying to convert the pagans, because if they took away the parties, nobody would want to convert?

You are obviously not a Puritan.

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In all seriousness, I have been exposed to more of these 'fundies' that you are describing since I started coming to this forum. However, even if there are many more of these kinds, you can only hope to lighten them up if you try to accept their point of view first. Tossing cold, hard evidence at them will cause most of them to run off screaming. It's only with compassion and understanding that you can hope to change anyone.

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Oh, I'm not so arrogant to think I'm going to change anyone's mind. The best I think I can hope to do with the Fundies is to possible make them less completely sure they are right; to make them doubt what they have been told.My goal is to defend science and reason, and perhaps have some small influence upon the fence-sitters, too."Fundies" are not open to learning, as a rule. They have bought into a religiion that extracts a terrible price; they have given up reason and knowledge in favor of ignorance and the denial of reality.

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...but even in these instances I don't see anything wrong with a weak faith.

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You don't?Now, that is a surprise.A weak faith is very easily lost, B2P.The religions that promote literal genesis Creationism are also promoting weak faith that relies upon ignorance to maintian it.Anyone involved in one of these religions who is educated, intelligent, and honest will very likely have a crisis of faith at some point, because they have been told that their salvation depends upon them denying the reality of nature.We have many such people here at EvC, including Crashfrog, Zepher, and my husband, Zhimbo (he almost never posts these days--doctoral defense coming in February)

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Or they read the Biologists' writings them read something by a Creationist that claims to refute the earlier readings.

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Very, very, very few Creationists have ever read anything by any Biologist in it's entirety, in context.Trust me, I've seen little evidence of it in 4 years of active participation on EvC.They read what they see on the Creationist sites and in Creationist books and when they are referred to a science-based site or book they reject it, often without reading it, claiming that it is "biased" against God, or somesuch.They insulate themselves very effectively from any information that might upset the house of cards that is their ignorance-based and reality- denying faith.

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No, I'm not. It is ONE of the major themes, but there are others.

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I would say that the Crucifiction and the reason for it is the centerpiece of Christianity.I am astounded that you don't agree.

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All I'm saying is that there are reasons other than fear of death to believe in Christianity, and that fear of death is not the main reason.

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I'll agree that there are other reasons to belive in Christianity other than fear of death.However, unless the Crucifiction and the reason for it have been demoted in importance within Christianity, which I don't think it has been, you've still got the promise of eternal life in heaven as the main reason to believe.What is a belief in eternal life if it isn't fear of death being "the end"?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-13-2004 09:21 AM

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That sounds kind of cruel, to intentionally shake up somebody's faith.

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No, I'm not intentionally trying to shake someone's faith. I am trying to give them good information about Evolution and to point out that they have been lied to and misled.Surely, you must approve of telling the truth and uncovering lies and misinformation, no?

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And what are you saving people from with this? Ignorance? I don't see the point.

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We have a fundamentalist Christian president right now. During Reagan's presidency, the Gipper called Evolution "just a theory" that was controversial in science. Several attempts have been made to get religion, in the form of Creationism or Intelligent Design, taught in public schools as science. Several of these cases made it to federal court and one made it to the US supreme court. Currently, there was a recent attack on science and reason in public school science curriculums in Ohio.There is a very vocal, organized movement, which has the ear of the right wing of the Republican party, to remove evolution from public school science classrooms and insert religious doctrine in it's place.Yes, right now, science in our classrooms needs defending by everyday people like me, because those Creationists vote.

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They are NOT promoting weak faith, that's just a silly thing to say. And I know you don't mean that literally, but it's still not true.

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Yes, they are promoting weak faith. Not literally, but it is a weak faith in effect.

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Except post-crisis didn't turn to atheist.

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But some do become athiests, and a lot leave Christianity altogether because they become disgusted with the idea that they were lied to.

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However, while that may be true, you also seem to assume the reason it is the center piece is simply because believers are stupid, sniveling cowards that are too terrified to accept the reality of no life after death.

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I never said people were stupid or cowardly for wanting to believe in life after death.I think it is a very normal, natural part of being human. We all feel the unease, the fear, about our own death once we understand the concept. People choose to deal with this reality in many different ways, and religion, with a belief in a heavenly afterlife, was one way we began to use a long, long time ago to help us deal with the finality of Earthly death.I'm passing no judgement. I'm just stating a anthopological observation about the human condition.

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What is a belief in no God if if isn't fear of an Absolute?
Kind of a dumb question, but it's exactly like the one you just asked. I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it.

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Come on, this isn't the same.Do you or don't you agree that death is a pretty overriding theme in many religions, including and especially Christianity?I visited this chapel in Portugal last year. Yes, the entire place is made of exactly what you think it is.Create a Website | Tripod Web Hosting This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-13-2004 06:42 PM

All I ever got at Catholic mass was some lousy box wine.

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Yeah, but you catholics never got to really sin like us prods

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That's what you think. Catholics pretty much sin when they go to the bathroom, let alone everything else.

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However, you're giving them information that would change their outlook on things if they agree your information to be factual. Most of them will just become more liberal, but that still is changing their faith as they once knew it. At this point you seem to have good intentions, but you need to be aware of what you're doing.

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If their faith is tied to denying scientific findings, that's their problem. I don't force people to read my posts.

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I really don't care about public school and what it teaches, because none of it is stuff that I find useful. I'll quote Mark Twain on this one: I never let my schooling interfere with my education.

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Yeah, whatever kid.I suppose writing as well as you do, being able to read and do enough math to balance a checkbook are completely useless skills, right?

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School is a stupid and boring instrument used to create inteligent, but unenlightened worker bees that are forced to work in cubicles to make somebody else rich.

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Public school may be stupid and boring, but it is also illegal for religious zealots to use it to indoctrinate children to their religion.I'd be willing to bet that you would care very much what the public schools were teaching if all kids had to learn in science class that the Divine One split his thoughts into two after residing in a golden egg for a year, creating Heaven and Earth.That's the gist of the Hindu creation story.In other words, you should care a lot that religious people are trying to insert their religion into science classes in public schools. It's a real threat to religious liberty in the US.

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This 'reality' of earthly death being the end may not even be a reality,

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Really? People's bodies don't stop functioning at some point?

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and as an open-minded person with no religious belief wouldn't it be more reasonable to figure there was a possibility for an afterlife?

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The most rational and reasonable thing to conclude is that we do not know if there is an afterlife at all.We do know that living things, including people, die.OK, if you agree that death, (and the defeat of death, and the promise of everlasting life,) is an overriding theme in Christianity, why do you think that is?Why do you think that these things are so important to people, millions and millions of people for thousands and thousands of years?

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I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it.

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Of course not.In this case, however, I believe that the fear of the ultimate unknown is the basis of the "everlasting life/defeat of death" theme of many religions, including and especially, Christianity.You have mostly denied this without much support for your denial.

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If I'm not mistaken you're an atheist, which is fine. But are you atheist just because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?

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Actually, I'm an Agnostic.I see no evidence for God, but I cannot rule out something due to a lack of evidence, so I remain Agnostic. I don't know.

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Most atheists I know wish they believed in one, so I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

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I used to believe when I was a child and young adult. I found I was much more content, and was a happier, more loving, accepting person as an unbeliever as I ever was as a believer. I don't feel that anything is missing from my life at all.

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Was that supposed to spook me?

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No, you frigging nitwit! (said with love...)It was supposed to illustrate Christianity's preoccupation with DEATH.

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If they wanted to freak people out (and deep down they did, no question), they should've ripped out live internal organs, preserved them in something thick and clear, and made a church out of THAT. Then maybe they'd be on the right track.

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They came close.There are the dessicated corpses of a man and an infant hung up on the wall in that chapel, supposedly cursed by the mother/wife.