Acceptance, Evolutionists vs. Creationists

If this is acceptance I want no part of this. So far all this has been is belittling creationists as children unable to accept that Santa isn't real!Before you start doing that to me for standing up for them, I'm NOT a creationist or a Bible literalist, I'm just a theist.You guys need to quit pointing fingers.Creationists
Are more willing to accept what they have been told?Not necessarily. If they unquestionably believed what they were originally told they would have no need for apologetics.Have a more intense need for purpose?I wouldn't say need. Again, they're not babies that can't accept that Santa isn't real. I'd say more like they believe they have a purpose, which is more than I can objectively say about most atheists I know (and I have more atheist friends than Christian, so I have room to say this)Need the comfort of a supreme being?
Maybe, or maybe they just happen to believe in one.Evolutionists(Which is stereotypical. I know evolution happened, and I'm still a Christian. This should read atheists and not evolutionists.)Are more of the 'well I want to take it apart and see how it works' type?Usually they're a little more curious. But I do that too and I still believe in God.
Fear death less?From what I've seen, no.
Fear death more?Most of them are pretty uneasy with their opinion that they'll simply cease to exist. So yes.Are not willing to believe they are not in control of their life?Not necessarily. They're willing to believe whatever seems to them to be true. Just because they believe they are in complete control of their lives does not mean they'll refuse to believe anything else.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Okay, first of all sorry about screwing around in the other thread; but I'll be serious here.Schraffinator replies to me: Take a look at the title of the thread, please. In part I agree with this. However, if the boat's sprung a leak you gotta improvise; sometimes you can't just jump ship in shark infested water. Two possibilities other than ignoring stuff on purpose, which is by all means the case with SOME people:1.They take it on faith that what they believe is what happened. Modern science is accurate, but everything, including reality, is tentative. With that in mind, I don't see what's wrong with faith. Now while philosophically that works, if they try to debate science using philosophy(which is pointless because philosophy is so much cooler anyway) then they're just wasting time.2.Another possibility is that they just don't know that certain things work certain ways. They've been given all these copies of 'Darwin on Trial' etc and just figure it doesn't work. Trusting the mentor figures who give this stuff to them is not a bad thing; so this is by no means their fault. What you mentioned is very childish; but not all creationists are like that. In fact I'd say most of them aren't. If that's what creationism is about, isn't that a purpose? Not as many as you might think. Which is a more mature view?The first one obviously. But, according to Christian scripture we are saved through Christ's salvation and not by good deeds(I realize that's kind of weird but this is not the place to debate the moral merit of this part of Christian doctrine) so the good deeds ARE done just because Jesus taught that it was right; something like "do unto others as you would do to me;" and "be a servant to your fellow man".
From my experience, the stuff works, too. No, the fact is NOT that. That's pretty bold of you saying we believe something 'cause we're afraid; I'd like to see you stand through some of the things I've been through.Maybe people believe things for other reasons and not just fear? And I dunno if that's so much avoiding death as it is embracing it? If they don't have to be afraid of death then they aren't afraid of dying, which is death. Agreed. Shoot, critical thinking creates anxiety; especially when you get the courage(or stupidity) to tell others about your non-linear ideas.As such, I now refer you to my sexy signature quote:

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Thanks for the encouragement and laughs, Mike. Your new avatar owns!

Outnumbered but never outgunned!But as for this thread, I think we're the only ones left... guess that's a win?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

No, they simply have a different way of evaluating it. I'm not saying I agree with it, but most of them aren't ignoring anything. Agreed. But just because you don't believe in something doesn't make it not real. We should probably just drop this specific part of the discussion. Okay, fine. I may have a point of view similar to yours, but remember I'm just saying that creationists(mostly) are not trying to ignore reality; they just have a different take on it. I don't know about lying to themselves. Again, I don't agree with thier point of view, all I'm saying is that they're not in denial.
Keep in mind that they've taken on faith the literal events of the Bible, and they honestly believe in these events as facts. That's not lying to yourself. I know one that isn't. So ha! I agree, and so do Orwell and Huxley and Bradbury. But, brainwashing is a powerful force, especially considering most of the creationists were born into the doctrine. Also, you were telling me not to go all post-modern on you, but if I were to accept without question that the sky is blue then that would be questioning authority(my own senses)!
Most people don't feel a need to question this authority, though it certainly can make mistakes. I'm not saying it's right to not question authority, I'm just saying that to them that authority doesn't need questioning any more than their senses. Yeah, you kinda did. I'll post what you said as soon as I'm done."However, the fact is that believers fear death so much that they accept/manufacture an entire mythology and doctrine designed to avoid death altogether."You didn't say 'most' believers, you just said believers and gave no other alternative. If you'd like to rephrase that I won't give you a hard time about it, but that in itself was an incredibly generalizing statement. Just because people believe in everlasting life doesn't mean they fear the alternative. Some people don't like the idea of everlasting life. I think you mean death as in ceasing to exist, and not as in the act of dying(if that makes sense). If that's the case then yes, a Christian would typically disagree with the concept of ceasing to exist. But nobody denies that we all die someday at least on earth. Great verse, but again just because it's asserted that life does not end when our material shells pass does not mean we're cowering from the thought of 'shedding our skins' here.This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 06-06-2004 02:49 AMThis message has been edited by Born2Preach, 06-06-2004 03:00 AMThis message has been edited by Born2Preach, 06-06-2004 03:04 AM

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

I have known very few of the ones you describe here. However, the willful ignorance is still not quite denial, just choosing not to know something. You might choose not to know what's in my gym bag, but does that mean you're in denial of what's in it? I was thinking of going on a shpeal about that just despite this, but I'm not that cruel. Also, I don't think all versions are equally correct. Maybe, and personally I wouldn't go that far, but that raises the question of whether or not we really can know anything for sure. But that's not relevant to the topic so I'll shut up. If they never hear any opposing viewpoint to begin with, why question it? I think it's safe to say that you can't expect someone to question something without shown an alternate point of view; it's like how questioning this plain of reality is pointless because this is the only one we know about. Why not? C'mon, all the cool kids buy it! Umm... anyway: That's not what I meant. See, if you really believe in something you believe even if you don't like it. If someone believes the Bible to be the Word of God and doesn't agree that homosexuality is a sin, they can't just shrug off the religion because they don't like it. I assume you don't like those annoying PT cruisers that look like Volkswagons with brain tumors, but you're firm in your belief that they exist so you can't un-believe them just cause you don't like them.Now to explain what that had to do with my arguement:Some people have REALLY screwed up in life. Just cause they believe in God and eternal paradise or punishment doesn't mean they remember when hot little miss tramp comes to their room and opens her legs for a dollar. After all these people have done, thier honest belief that God will judge them for their sins may find themselves upon their deathbeds wishing there wasn't a judgement after their demise. No! You can't make me! Mommy said it's BAD!! Speak for yourself. If I get shot this inst-... just kidding. But if I die this instant and find myself in a brand new world that I don't know anything about... well... HELL YEAH!! There's nothing like the unknown. If mankind were so repulsed by the unknown there wouldn't be science or rockets that fly to the moon, now would there? Almost as major as God punishes evil and that Jesus preaches kindness to all, huh? I agree, it is a PART of it. But it's not all of it like you so blatantly asserted a couple posts ago. Truth is, with the possibility of no afterlife in mind, I'd say I'm just more likely to spread kindness and make my life worth something as it's the only one I've got. And guess what Christianity tells us to do while we're down here?

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Well, I think hangdawg proved my point about them not being willfully ignorant by addressing the point?

Seriously, I thought this threadwas supposed to be about tolerance and acceptance. What the hell kind of acceptance involves burning bridges? I'm not trying to play moderator, but shouldn't you guys start a new thread if you're going to be talking about that? Because this sure won't create tolence.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Look, all I'm saying is that holding a debate in a thread with a title such as this one really says a lot about the ability of disagreeing intellectuals to get along. Really, I thought you guys would be more mature than this...

In all seriousness, I have been exposed to more of these 'fundies' that you are describing since I started coming to this forum. However, even if there are many more of these kinds, you can only hope to lighten them up if you try to accept their point of view first. Tossing cold, hard evidence at them will cause most of them to run off screaming. It's only with compassion and understanding that you can hope to change anyone. It could be in some cases, but even in these instances I don't see anything wrong with a weak faith. Or they read the Biologists' writings them read something by a Creationist that claims to refute the earlier readings. If the individual doesn't know much about biology, that person would probably believe the second one. First of all, if the person believes in it then they believe in it, even if they reasons or evidence they have for it may not be rational by scientific standards. Whether or not it is reasonable by your standards is irrelevant to the fact that they believe in X. But if they honestly believe that Allah exists and that 'There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is His Prophet', then they're not going to believe in Zeus even if they like the pagan rituals etc. Except for after we die, huh? We may not be able to tell it to the world, but we all have to die sometime, and one at a time we'll all know for sure when we get there. Unlike space exploration, we'll all know one day whether we like it or not. No, I'm not. It is ONE of the major themes, but there are others. All I'm saying is that there are reasons other than fear of death to believe in Christianity, and that fear of death is not the main reason. That's great, too bad none of the religions, including Christianity, have an 100% follow-up from their believers on that. But just because it's a big theme of other religions doesn't refute my assertion that Christianity places importance on it.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Agreed. However, just because they stole the celebration because it looked fun doesn't mean they honestly believed in Zeus or whoever the celebration was in honor of.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

Now this is more like it! You see, we can all get along regardless of our standpoint on the debate. We're all party-hungry beer chugging idiots underneath all the other stuff! In fact, I just came from a party that had TERRIBLE food. What kind of a party has no pretzels?!

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

That's not arrogance to think you can, it's only arrogance if you expect to. That sounds kind of cruel, to intentionally shake up somebody's faith. Why defend it if it speaks for itself? That's almost giving the stram man of 'evolutionists spreading their belief' some merit. People spread their religions with some annoying methods(door to door etc.), but they honestly believe they can save people with this. And what are you saving people from with this? Ignorance? I don't see the point. Far from the truth. Untrue. They are NOT promoting weak faith, that's just a silly thing to say. And I know you don't mean that literally, but it's still not true. But that doesn't mean they'll become atheist or switch beliefs. You forgot "B2P". Except post-crisis didn't turn to atheist. Maybe, but I've seen plenty of evidence that they have in more than 4 years of knowing people in REAL LIFE, and not an internet forum. So what did these guys do to you again? You're turning to some harsh descriptions. And lots of people would agree with you even if I'm not so sure. However, while that may be true, you also seem to assume the reason it is the center piece is simply because believers are stupid, sniveling cowards that are too terrified to accept the reality of no life after death. And that is just not true. Once again, if they believe there is life after death why would they be afraid to accept no life after death? Just because people don't believe in something doesn't mean people are afraid of it; that's exactly like the creationist straw-man tactic that says 'evolutionists' are afraid to accept that there is a God. Okay, then you agreed with my point. Fine and dandy, but your last sentence is a problem: What is a belief in no God if if isn't fear of an Absolute? Kind of a dumb question, but it's exactly like the one you just asked. I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.

The one you went to, silly! Ha ha ha!... Hey, wait a minute!

Yeah, I approve of the truth completely, because what you don't know is about to hurt you. Always.However, you're giving them information that would change their outlook on things if they agree your information to be factual. Most of them will just become more liberal, but that still is changing their faith as they once knew it. At this point you seem to have good intentions, but you need to be aware of what you're doing. I really don't care about public school and what it teaches, because none of it is stuff that I find useful. I'll quote Mark Twain on this one: I never let my schooling interfere with my education.School is a stupid and boring instrument used to create inteligent, but unenlightened worker bees that are forced to work in cubicles to make somebody else rich. I've been to several churches, none of which have mentioned science at all. To take on faith that something happened despite evidence is not weak faith at all, just incredible strong faith. I realize there are churches that throw out apologetics as the bulk of their sermons, but those programs are going to get their shit ruined once I'm old enough to be taken seriously Then they went too far. I realize that's a bold statement, but they shouldn't get disgusted at a doctrine, let alone their beliefs, because someone misused it to hurt them; you wouldn't be angry at a rock if I threw it at you, right? This 'reality' of earthly death being the end may not even be a reality, and as an open-minded person with no religious belief wouldn't it be more reasonable to figure there was a possibility for an afterlife? I agree.Now, explain to me how those two questions are not the same.I'll say it again: Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you're afraid of it. If I'm not mistaken you're an atheist, which is fine. But are you atheist just because you're terrified of the concept of an all-knowing, all loving God?Please answer yes or no to that question. Most atheists I know wish they believed in one, so I'm pretty sure I know the answer. Wooohooo! Was that supposed to spook me? Learned all about the history of that joint in 5th grade. Personally, I don't really see what the big deal about digging up your buddies and making a church out of them is. If they wanted to freak people out (and deep down they did, no question), they should've ripped out live internal organs, preserved them in something thick and clear, and made a church out of THAT. Then maybe they'd be on the right track. Maybe...

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.