Who & what are the demons ?

yes, and i think you would agree with the following statement:

quote:

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According to the ethical objectivist, the truth or falsity of typical moral judgments does not depend upon the beliefs or feelings of any person or group of persons. This view holds that moral propositions are analogous to propositions about chemistry, biology, or history: they describe (or fail to describe) a mind-independent reality. When they describe it accurately, they are trueno matter what anyone believes, hopes, wishes, or feels. When they fail to describe this mind-independent moral reality, they are falseno matter what anyone believes, hopes, wishes, or feels.

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Thus for you, what is real is only what is provable or "evident"
and i can respect that, though im more of a leap of faith subjectivist

And as one who has had subjective evidence, I dont buy the idea that demons are not real.I dont think the verdict can be issued so easily...at this point.

If you were in the same room that we were observing what we observed and you said it was fake, it would change my confidence based on the perceptions of myself and others.If more people in the room doubted the event, it would shake my perception of the event being as genuine and undeniable as I saw it with the entire room in agreement. In fact, I would question what I experienced a lot more had there been witnesses who were less sure and/or convinced of the event. No. I admit to a bias in favor of my explanation given.Edited by Phat, : added quote

Well....I had to explain the unusual phenomenon and event that I witnessed in some way. I ruled out being tricked by others...for reasons that I deemed valid. The options and alternatives at that point were rather limited. Jar might suggest that we simply label it as an unexplained and unknown event. This is probably the most honest approach, so my conclusion may have been due to bias and premature at best.

Point taken. I can only theorize that the person whom I observed was oppressed. The behavior was not his usual behavior, and the voices were---honestly---something that a human could not duplicate. He had to have "let them" influence him at some point in his life prior to the manifestation.

Yes, but keep in mind, as I have stated before, that I am predisposed towards accepting such beliefs. A true skeptic would be scratching his head to this very day.

Its been awhile, but IIRC, his close friends concluded that there were generational "curses" or spirits within his family lineage. I simply made the justification that the behavior(and cause of such behavior) was not really his desire....he was a victim. These points that you bring up are interesting, though. Bak then we simply assumed that anything that spectacular had to be demons and the particulars were not really important to us...in our view there was no real science to exorcism...just faith that the Holy Spirit would always overcome the other wannabes. More recently, as I have matured (aside from still holding irrational beliefs) I conclude that demons are common and are a bit like catching a cold...anyone can have them but they wont usually kill you.

Honestly I don't know. Using the cold analogy, once I have a cold I cant help coughing and becoming stuffed up. I may have at one time been a victim in that my immune system was low and I caught a draft or caught germs from coughing people at work. i dont want to cough, but the mechanism is established. Does this make any sense?

Keep in mind that I am but speculating. There is no real science to this religious/spiritual stuff, anyway.Nobody may choose to have a cough or cold, but they do like dancing in the rain. (with a lowered immune system of which they were unaware.Nobody may choose to allow a demon to enter/influence them, but they do love to watch porn, associate with nebulous characters, or knowingly mock God. The previous article sums up a mainstream belief in this stuff. Im not sure if I buy it, but, after witnessing odd behavior at so-called deliverance sessions, I tentatively concluded that 80% of it was faked, which leaves 20% unexplained.

No. Quite honestly, Theodoric, I am biased towards woo type explanations, since I have experienced the emotion of such stuff. Perhaps it is a bit illogical, but im a bit of a strange one.

Perhaps, but not everything without evidence and/or proof should be disregarded as a possibility. Of course, now that I said that someone will bring up fairies,bigfoot, and loch ness and claim the same status.

All of us do things that we don't want to do. Some of these things are minor things in our minds and hearts. Others are quite important...so that we essentially sin against ourselves when doing them. I agree that for some folks, porn is no big deal. Perhaps another thing is a big deal....stealing from your mother, or lying to your wife. When a person knowingly goes against their own morality, they allow a legal entrance for the demons. When we are enticed, God withdraws His power and lets us flounder in our own power, at which point satan has claim. (thats what the dogma teaches, at any rate) You are becoming double minded, and are no longer certain of what it is you really want or believe. Being of two minds is being weak. It is also being susceptible to following a path not initially of your own choosing.

How can any definition of the supernatural (God or demons) even be objective?I cant expect you--an unbeliever--to define it any less vague than I can, except to say that in your conclusion it is all in my head.Some things by definition have to be vague and nebulous.

Is it possible for you to accept that a thing could exist even if you or I were unable to define it, or do you hold to the belief that anything unobjectionable is by definition as good as not there?

Perhaps I can desribe the thought process another way, without the label of "demons". The Beast described in Rational Recovery is an example of our inner addictive voice. The way that we talk to ourselves and address ourselves allows for subtle behaviors that are not us--and yet that are us.Understanding how this inner battle works is a key to its defeat, but our animal nature is very persistent and we need Am understanding of AVRT short for addictive voice recognition training. By now you are probably wondering if I am willing to admit that demons are all creations of our own minds...in which case I won't say . I'll let you draw your own conclusions!