The mystery of Job.

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Originally posted by Raha

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I've also read (but forgot the source) quite interesting theory which traced OT Satan to Sumerian god Enki (who was known trickster and mischiefmaker, but who cheated An and Enlil and saved people during Great Flood).

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There are a number of interesting parallels to the OT and even gnostic overtones to be found in some of the ancient Sumerian tales as the following excerpts demonstrate.Adapa (Adamu) and the Food of Life:Summary: Adapa, or perhaps Adamu, had recieved wisdom from the god Ea (also called Enki), but not eternal life.Excerpt from tablet #1Wide understanding he (Ea, Enki) had perfected for him (Adapa, Adamu)
to disclose the designs of the land.To him (Adapa) he (Ea) had given wisdom; eternal life he had not given him.Excerpted from tablet #2(Ea speaking to Adapa)Adapa, before the face of Anu the King thou art to go
... to heaven.
When thou comest up, and when thou approachest the door of Anu,
At the door of Anu, Tammuz and Gishzida are standing . . .They will speak to Anu. A good countenance of Anu
They will show thee. When thou standest before Anu
Food of death they will set before thee,
Eat not. Water of death they will set before thee,
Drink not. Garments they will set before thee,
Put them on. . .
The counsel that I have given thee, forget not. The words
Which I have spoken, hold fast."(End of Ea speaking)To Anu . . . (t)hey (Tammuz and Gishzida) speak
"Why has Ea revealed to impure mankind
The heart of heaven and earth?
A heart ... has created within him, has made him a name?
What can we do with him?Food of life bring him, that be man, eat. Food of life
They brought him, but he ate not. Water of life
They brought him, but he drank not.Garments they brought him. He clothed himself.Anu looked at him; he wondered at him.
" Come, Adapa, why hast thou not eaten, not drunken?
Now thou shalt not live." . . .(Adapa answers Anu)
Ea, my lord, said to me: "Eat not, drink not."(Anu speaks)
Take him and bring him back to his earth.[from "Cuneiform Parallels to the Old Testament " by R.W. Rogers, 1912].The flood parallels are found in the "Epic of Gilgamesh":Summary: Ea (Enki) is bound by an oath not to reveal to mankind that a great flood will be wrought. Ea circumvents the oath by instructing Utnapishtim to go and stand on one side of a reed wall on a certain night. Thus, approaching the other side of the wall at the appointed time, Ea, ostensibly addressing the wall, relates the plans of the gods so that Utnapishtim can "just happen" to overhear.Excerpts from tablet XI:Their (the other god's) words he (Ea, Enki) repeats to the reed-hut:Reed-hut, reed-hut! Wall, wall!Reed hut, hearken! Wall, reflect!Man of Shuruppak, son of Ubar-Tutu (i.e. Utnapishtim)Tear down (this) house, build a ship!Give up possessions, seek thou life.Forswear (worldly) goods and keep the soul alive!Aboard the ship take thou the seed of all living things.[From: The Epic of Gilgamesh in Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, James B. Pritchard, ed.; Princeton University Press, 1969][This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 09-29-2003]

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Originally posted by Prozacman

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I'd be interested to know first of all where your source(s) for the "many-breasted" translation is from. I'll need to study that. Having read my NRSV and notes (Genesis 17:1), ElShad. is defined as "God Almighty", & the notes say, "This account from the priestly tradition is a parallel version of the Abrahamic covenant given in the early tradition . . .

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I would also be interested in any sources regarding the "many-breasted" translation of shaddai. Although it is admitted that the meaning of shaddai is uncertain, it us usually thought to stem from the root shaddad (prop. burly, fig. powerful, impregnable)[from Strong's concordance].If it were not for the prohibitive syntax, I would almost suspect that shaddai was a construct noun form, i.e. "God of power".Also, I too would need to review sources but IIRC the mountain and breast connotations were, supposedly, symbolically derived. IOW, God was associated with the concept of power and impregnability. This concept was further enhanced by his appearing on mountains (which also implied power and impregnability). The merging of the two could have rendered the concept of "God Almighty" and "God of the mountains" virtually synonymous.Also, there was a close correlation in the imagery of breasts and mountains in the ANE. There are even today, mountains that are named, in arabic, "the breast".So, while I would be interested in any documented etymology of the term, it would also be interesting to determine the extent to which the connotations attributed to shaddai are due to the blending of concepts and imagery.Namaste'Amlodhi

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Originally posted by doctrbill

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Welcome to our Forum Amlodhi.
Nice to meet another fan of Sumerian culture!

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Thank you for the warm welcome, doctrbill.Thanks also for the additional work you presented concerning the etymology of the term shaddai.Namaste'Amlodhi

Thanks for the welcome Raha.

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Originally posted by Raha

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Only one little thing - the myths you cite are not Sumerian but Babylonian. Of course - Babylonian pantheon and mythology evolved from Sumerian, but are significantly different. . .

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There is no question that you are correct in this. The Babylonians greatly revered the Sumerian culture and the Sumerian language was considered to be the language of scholars; much as was Latin to later cultures. Nevertheless, as you say, the Babylonians had few reservations about altering earlier recensions of the Sumerian tales to conform with their own culture and national gods.However, it is likely that we will never know the original content or the actual origins of the tales. The Sumerian version of the flood story (with the protagonist as Ziusudra) is largely incomplete and the original content (absent in the lacunae) must be deduced from the later recensions i.e., the Old Babylonian "Atrahasis" and the later Standard Babylonian,(or Nineveh recension), "Gilgamesh".Nevertheless, you are, as mentioned, certainly correct in pointing out the distinctions.Namaste'Amlodhi

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Originally posted by doctrbill

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I have a lot of respect for Strong but cannot always go along with his analysis.

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I would have to agree with that. There have been times when I have, in particular, questioned his choice of root origins.An additional suggestion has been cited in "The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament", Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner; vol. 2, Brill pub. Although here also, it is admitted that the etymology of the term has not been clarified, they cite the suggestion that "shaddai" may stem from the Akkadian "shadu(m)" or, more properly the adjectival form "shadda'u" meaning; "mountain dwelling". They do note, however, that while the adjectival form includes the postulated doubling of the daleth of "shaddai", that this doubling only appears in the Neo-Assyrian period. Therefore, it would need to be shown that the doubling in "shaddai" is a later grammatical addition.

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doctrbill:

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At best, these old words are somewhat enigmatic. As you may note, those sources which take it to mean 'breast,' in some form or another, make much of the nurturing aspect of the godhead.

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Please understand that I am not prepared to attempt to argue any fixed position regarding the etymology of the term shaddai. The contents of this post (as well as of my previous one) are simply musings on a subject I find interesting.That said, I can see how the reference in Is. 60:16 links the concept of a nurturing breast to a masculine personage (malakim) within a metaphorical framework. Here, however, the metaphorical imagery is connected to an action (to be performed by the people) by the use of the verb (in the 2nd per. pl. imp. form) "TiNaQi" (you shall suck). It is unclear, to me, whether this direction can be taken in the construction of a proper title. IOW, although it would seem reasonable to extrapolate a metaphorical meaning from an existing proper title, I'm not sure that a proper title would be constructed from a metaphorical foundation.Also, although the Hebrew "shad" does indeed translate as "breast" and implies a sense of nurturing, it is unclear (again, to me), how it would assume the grammatical form of "shaddai". If I understand correctly, the plural of "shad" is "shadim" and the dual form is "shadayim" (with no dagesh forte to indicate a doubling of daleth). In addition, the construct form is also simply "shad" and the syntactical order renders the use of any construct form impossible regardless of the root used.One other possibility would be, as you have suggested, that the suffix denotes a feminine form of Aramaic origin. My only reservation with regard to this suggestion is that the first appearance (in the bible) of "shaddai" is in Gen. 17:1 and I am unsure whether there was much (if any) Aramaic influence at the time this verse was penned.

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doctrbill:

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Can you give us a transliteration of the Arabic word (for breast)?

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Ever hear of the Grand Tetons? From the French for: 'Big Tits.'

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. . .oh, yes. I had forgotten about the Grand Tetons.It has been a long time since I read about certain mountains being named "the breast" (due to similar imagery). IIRC, the article was strictly in English and the actual Arabic word was not given. However, although I don't read Arabic, I seem to recall it being said somewhere that the Arabic term for breast is "berk" (but don't take that to the bank).Namaste'Amlodhi

Thank you for the welcome Prozacman.

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Originally posted by Prozacman

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The excerpt you provided on Adapa, Ea, & Enki, reminds me of the Adam & Eve story in Genesis.

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Yes, I've always found it especially interesting that one of the alternate transliterations of "Adapa" is "Adamu"; that sounds so familiar somehow.

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Prozacman:

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Perhaps we can find more connections between some of these seperate gods and discuss our findings.

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I suspect that we can. Raha has already (since your post) mentioned the creation epic and "Nin-ti" (the "lady of the rib" or possibly {by analogy from "Nin-ka-si"} the "lady {or goddess} who alleviates the pain in the rib").Namaste'Amlodhi

Hello doctrbill,

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Originally posted by doctrbill

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I see this as two facets of a culture which had no apparent hang ups about the breast, male or female.

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In such a cultural environment, the 'breast' etymology should not be difficult to imagine.

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Indeed, it's not difficult to imagine at all. One need only look at the Sumerian pictograph for "woman" and understanding is instantly obtained.

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doctrbill

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. . . by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb. Genesis 49:25 King James Version

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No argument. The metaphorical connections are there.Also, in regard to Aramaic influence, while doing some unrelated research, I was surprised to find that some biblical scholars think that before Aramaic became wide-spread, there was a "proto-Aramaic" that may have originated as far back as early Akkadian. Thus, Aramaic influence on the construction of shaddai cannot be dismissed.Thanks for the additional research you presented. I'm going to have to chew on this for awhile.Namaste'Amlodhi