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Author Topic:   The mystery of Job.
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 16 of 50 (58194)
09-27-2003 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Raha
09-27-2003 1:14 PM


Raha writes:
how come God has sons? What is their supposed status? Are they gods as well? (where is monotheism then?) or demi-gods? or what?
It may be helpful to understand that theology is based upon human experience with the powers that be. Monarchy is very much like the monotheism. There is One king, in whom is vested all the powers of the universe (within certain obvious limits). In fact, the royalty of ancient Israel were sometimes referred to as 'elohim'; a word most often translated "God." Thus, the psalmist quotes Jehovah's address to the royal house:
"I have said, 'Ye are gods.'" Psalm 82:6
It is not a far step to imagine that the organization of heavenly gods is similar to that among men. And, of course, men have women and children.
Satan of Job ... does not appear to be God’s enemy.
And why God needs someone to test people’s faith?
Same reason a king, or president, needs someone to assess public opinion. The pollster is not an enemy of the state, even though he may bring an 'evil' report. Both, kings, and presidents, retain men who do their 'dirty work.' However evil we may think these men to be, they work for 'gods.' A test of faith is essentially a test of loyalty. Governments to this all the time, sometimes openly, sometimes secretly.
db

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 19 of 50 (58240)
09-27-2003 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rei
09-27-2003 8:39 PM


Re: YHVH or Elohim
Rei writes:
ba'al, which means (if I recall correctly) "master" (or is it "almighty"? I always get it confused with "adonai"),
Shaddai is translated "almighty" but it appears that "bountiful breast" or "multi-breasted" would be more accurate.
db

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 Message 18 by Rei, posted 09-27-2003 8:39 PM Rei has replied

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 22 of 50 (58386)
09-28-2003 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Prozacman
09-28-2003 4:07 PM


Re: YHVH or Elohim
That had occured to me at one time but I didn't learn much about it. I am wondering why they would assign the name of a Greek Goddess to an apparently male figure of pre-Hellenic times. The full title was El Shaddai, El being a Canaanite deity. The ai ending may be the Aramaic suffix indicating a feminine noun; in which case it may indeed refer to a goddesses. I am curious about the history of this many breasted goddess. Did she just suddenly show up in Greek mythology? Or was she borrowed from someone elses culture? I am presently preoccupied with other things, so I hope you can rustle up more info on this.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Prozacman, posted 09-28-2003 4:07 PM Prozacman has replied

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 28 of 50 (58662)
09-29-2003 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Prozacman
09-29-2003 9:19 PM


Re: YHVH or Elohim
I have been trying to find that reference to the multi-breasted one. I thought it was from a sermon online and I may or may not have found it again. I did find some other interesting stuff which I am posting to demonstrate the variety of opinions available.
From a sermon:
quote:
"El" means "God, the strong One" from Genesis 3, "the strong One." "El", "God, the Life Giver." "Shad, S-h-a-d," means, "breast, like the woman." "Shaddai" means, "breasted," plural. And God appeared to Abraham in the Name of God, the strong breasted One." Paragraph E-39
From another sermon:
quote:
The Hebrew name means God Almighty, literally God all-powerful and all-sufficient.
From an ad for a book titled: El Shaddai,
quote:
... El Shaddai - The God of more than enough, the All-Sufficient One!
Decide for yourself. ‘Shad’ is Hebrew for breast. ‘Dai’ is Hebrew for plentiful. I see nothing in this (other than the word El), to suggest ‘Mighty;’ in which case El would have to serve both: Mighty, and God. That doesn't leave much for Shaddai. Evidently I am not the only one who sees the possibility of the plural suffix in this.
An excerpt from a Bible Study
quote:
In the year 250 B.C., a group of Jewish scholars translated the Scriptures into Greek. This version of the Bible is called the Septaugint. These scholars translated the Hebrew Shaddai into the Greek word ikanos which means "all-sufficient". The word Shaddai occurs some 48 times in the Old Testament and is always translated "almighty" in the King James Version. Now consider that fact that the Hebrew word shad is used 24 times and is always translated as "breast". In the same way that a mother’s breast is "all-sufficient" for her newborn’s nourishment, God is "all-sufficient" for His people. Hence, when we combine El (Almighty God) with Shaddai (All-sufficiency) we have "The Almighty God who pours out sustenance and blessing".
And this, which may or may not be the reference I was thinking of earlier. It is an excerpt from the Edited Transcript of Conversation between Thomas & Margo Abshier, September 28th, 2000. http://www.naturedox.com/Theology/Word&Spirit.htm
Bold Emphasis of the multibreasted stuff is my doing.
quote:
Thomas: ... God the Father has split himself, given the Masculine role to Jehova/Yeshua and taken on the motherly, nurturing, procreative role of El Shaddai (the multibreasted one). The mother was then impregnated with the Word, the seed, the directed organizing power of the Word, and from that union the offspring material universe was formed.
Margo: Yes, and it was Jesus/Yeshua who was the Fathering role, since anything that came out of that union was out of Jesus' doing. He did the the Word and the sperm giving.
Thomas: So, in a way Jesus/Yeshua was the Father, and now God the Father was now the Mother in return.
Margo: When God the Father first showed Jesus how to be God, he said, I'm going to go down to this man Abraham and set up a covenant, and you watch how I do this, and I'm going to present myself as the multibreasted, large breasted provider mother God. So the first name the Jews knew for God, other than El, was El Shaddai (the multibreasted God). So, the whole covenant of the Jewish people is based on the motherhood of God. Then, when Moses went to the burning bush, ...
Isn’t Burning Bush a kind of S.T.D.?
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Prozacman, posted 09-29-2003 9:19 PM Prozacman has replied

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 29 of 50 (58663)
09-29-2003 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Amlodhi
09-29-2003 10:27 PM


Re: YHVH or Elohim
Welcome to our Forum Amlodhi.
Nice to meet another fan of Sumerian culture!
db
------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Amlodhi, posted 09-29-2003 10:27 PM Amlodhi has replied

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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 32 of 50 (58685)
09-30-2003 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Amlodhi
09-29-2003 11:16 PM


Re: YHVH or Elohim
Amlodhi writes:
the root shaddad (prop. burly, fig. powerful, impregnable)
I have a lot of respect for Strong but cannot always go along with his analysis. At best, these old words are somewhat enigmatic. As you may note, those sources which take it to mean 'breast,' in some form or another, make much of the nurturing aspect of the godhead. I was unaware of any authority on the subject when I analysed it for myself based on the limited information available in Young's Analytical Concordance. My preliminary take on it, at that time, was: 'plentiful breast.' I found this interpretation acceptable, in part, due to passages such as, "Thou shalt suck the breast of kings" Isaiah 60:16. There is also, if I recall correctly, the dual nature of El himself: warrior and nurturer.
There are even today, mountains that are named, in arabic, "the breast".
Can you give us a transliteration of the Arabic word?
Ever hear of the Grand Tetons? From the French for: 'Big Tits.'
db
------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Amlodhi, posted 09-29-2003 11:16 PM Amlodhi has replied

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 Message 41 by Amlodhi, posted 09-30-2003 4:49 PM doctrbill has replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2795 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 43 of 50 (58904)
10-01-2003 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Amlodhi
09-30-2003 4:49 PM


Re: YHVH or Elohim
Amlodhi writes:
Please understand that I am not prepared to attempt to argue any fixed position regarding the etymology of the term shaddai. The contents of this post (as well as of my previous one) are simply musings on a subject I find interesting.
My sentiment as well.
... although the Hebrew "shad" does indeed translate as "breast" and implies a sense of nurturing, it is unclear (again, to me), how it would assume the grammatical form of "shaddai".
I was, early on, under the impression that 'shad' - breast; had been combined with 'dai' plentiful; resulting in shad-dai - plentiful, or bountiful, breast.
In addition, the construct form is also simply "shad" and the syntactical order renders the use of any construct form impossible regardless of the root used.
You're over my head now Amlodhi.
I'm not sure that a proper title would be constructed from a metaphorical foundation.
I see this as two facets of a culture which had no apparent hang ups about the breast, male or female. It was a breast-feeding culture, as I imagine all ancient cultures were; and there was, evidently, no stigma attached to public awareness of that activity. This relaxed attitude is also apparent in New Testament writings. Witness:
quote:
"Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!" Luke 11:27 RSV
The Good News Bible clarifies the archaic 'Blessed' with, "How happy ..." {happy tits!}.
In such a cultural environment, the 'breast' etymology should not be difficult to imagine. Another telling passage is the following, where 'God' is given for El and 'Almighty' is given for shaddai and 'breast' is given for shad:
quote:
... by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb. Genesis 49:25 King James Version
The association with nurture is certainly at home in this context
One other possibility would be, as you have suggested, that the suffix denotes a feminine form of Aramaic origin. My only reservation with regard to this suggestion is that the first appearance (in the bible) of "shaddai" is in Gen. 17:1 and I am unsure whether there was much (if any) Aramaic influence at the time this verse was penned.
I may have this backward. Perhaps the suffix is some Canaanite tongue. All that comes to mind regarding the Aramaic influence are a few things which may or may not lead to an understanding of this.
  • The name of Abram's sister/wife Sarai also features this ending.
  • The name Yahweh appears in the narrative, even though Yahweh tells Moses that Abraham did not know that name. {The name Sarai was later changed to Sarah: a Mesopotamian suffix? Mesopotamia was, in the Bible, called Aram Naharaim (Aram of two rivers). Perhaps all the names were revised at a later date? The story itself was apparently about 1500 years old when it was committed to writing}
  • Genesis was penned circa 700 to 500 BC.
  • Aramaic, at some point, became the language of Assyria,
  • and Aramaic was the language of native Israeli's in the time of Christ.
Aside from these clues, I have nothing definitive to offer this question.
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Amlodhi, posted 09-30-2003 4:49 PM Amlodhi has replied

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