EvC Forum: Did Jesus exist, Part II

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Topic: Did Jesus exist, Part II

mark24

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Message 3 of 301 (277742)
01-10-2006 12:36 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
01-10-2006 12:27 PM

robinrohan,

The problem with Tacitus is that he is as in the dark as you & I. He was born after Jesus died, & can therefore only tell us what he himself has been told. By others who also also never saw Jesus.

This is independent evidence of christianity, not Jesus.

Mark

This message has been edited by mark24, 01-10-2006 12:39 PM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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	Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 12:27 PM		robinrohan has replied

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	Message 5 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 12:44 PM	mark24 has replied
	Message 13 by ramoss, posted 01-10-2006 1:25 PM	mark24 has not replied

mark24

Member (Idle past 5225 days)

Posts: 3857

From: UK

Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 8 of 301 (277748)
01-10-2006 1:00 PM

Reply to: Message 5 by robinrohan
01-10-2006 12:44 PM

robinrohan,

Tacitus was an historian. If he suspected that the Christian story was untrue, or questionable, I imagine he would have said, "their founder Christus, according to their traditions, was executed during the reign of Tiberius" or something of that sort.

How could he know what was true or not? I imagine he just took what he heard as fact & repeated it.

Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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	Message 5 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 12:44 PM		robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 14 by Faith, posted 01-10-2006 2:07 PM		mark24 has replied

mark24

Member (Idle past 5225 days)

Posts: 3857

From: UK

Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 18 of 301 (277776)
01-10-2006 2:43 PM

Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
01-10-2006 2:07 PM

Faith,

I believe Robin's point was that any historian worth his salt checks his facts, and if there is any reasonable doubt he doesn't make a statement without qualifying it.

Then you need those facts. The "witness" of someone that was 100 years too late ain't good enough.

Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
	Message 14 by Faith, posted 01-10-2006 2:07 PM		Faith has not replied

mark24

Member (Idle past 5225 days)

Posts: 3857

From: UK

Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 53 of 301 (277857)
01-10-2006 6:33 PM

Reply to: Message 52 by robinrohan
01-10-2006 6:09 PM

Re: May be wandering far afield.

robinrohan,

But my point is the passage from Tacitus does read to me as if he is saying that the execution of Jesus by Pilate was a well-known fact to anyone who knew some history

Speculation. You don't know that, so its not evidence. The best you can say is that Tacitus might have been in posession of bona fide evidence of the existence of Jesus. But then he might not.

Mark

This message has been edited by mark24, 01-10-2006 06:36 PM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
	Message 52 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 6:09 PM		robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 54 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 6:37 PM		mark24 has replied

mark24

Member (Idle past 5225 days)

Posts: 3857

From: UK

Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 56 of 301 (277864)
01-10-2006 6:42 PM

Reply to: Message 54 by robinrohan
01-10-2006 6:37 PM

Re: May be wandering far afield.

robinrohan,

I have the evidence of the text. That's how it reads.

There's more than one way of reading it. And as I've said before, the actual information that Tacitus was basing his text on would be evidence, if it supported your reading. An equivocal text isn't.

Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
	Message 54 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 6:37 PM		robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 58 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 6:47 PM		mark24 has replied

mark24

Member (Idle past 5225 days)

Posts: 3857

From: UK

Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 59 of 301 (277868)
01-10-2006 6:48 PM

Reply to: Message 58 by robinrohan
01-10-2006 6:47 PM

Re: May be wandering far afield.

robinrohan,

Where is the equivocality?

His source.

Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
	Message 58 by robinrohan, posted 01-10-2006 6:47 PM		robinrohan has not replied

mark24

Member (Idle past 5225 days)

Posts: 3857

From: UK

Joined: 12-01-2001

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Message 134 of 301 (278215)
01-11-2006 4:15 PM

Reply to: Message 129 by Faith
01-11-2006 3:35 PM

Re: What counts as evidence?

Faith,

Equally remarkable is that he can name their founder and his fate, and even identify when it occurred, under Tiberius and Pilate, and yet this proves nothing, because he had to have received the information from some other source,

Received the information from the same source as the rest of the christians, who also weren't there.

and, oh amazing twist, since it is the SAME information as what the New Testament says

Why is this amazing if Tacitus used the same oral tradition as his source?

That's a bit like saying my brother & I read the same book, therefore it' non-fiction.

Mark

This message has been edited by mark24, 01-11-2006 04:17 PM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
	Message 129 by Faith, posted 01-11-2006 3:35 PM		Faith has not replied

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