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Author | Topic: That whole jesus thing is a load of tosh | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
I'll take a crack at this.
The story is generally misunderstood; a situation not uncommon among superstitious people, and some of New Testament writers were more superstitious than others. In Hebrew and in Latin, the word virgin may be understood simply as a young woman. And as to why Joseph married her anyway, well, it seems he expected the kid to accomplish great things. Many men, throughout history have accepted a pregnant bride, even though she was carrying someone else's baby. "That's the story of, that's the glory of love."
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
quote: Indeed. It is a legal term which is defined in at least three places: "never been laid." Some biblical authors seem to use it as a term of respect on occasion. This seems appropriate. If one knows nothing of a woman's sexual history, he might just as well assume that she is honorable. "Virgin Birth" in the sense of sexless reproduction goes way back in pagan religion, probably to a time before people understood the connection between sex and reproduction. That Matthew makes a big deal of it may be because he read Isaiah from the Septuagint and the Greek parthenos (virgin) may be taken either way. John, on the other hand, could read Isaiah in the Hebrew, and he makes no mention at all of the "virgin" birth. In Latin, (and in English), virgin may be taken either way. In fact, some Latin texts use it in the sense of: "young married woman." Some New Testament writer use parthenos in the sense of "girl" or "daughter." There is no compelling reason to accept the superstitious opinion of a few disciples, especially when you weigh it against the evidence they cite in support of their claim (Isaiah 7:14). If one reads the verse in context (several chapters worth) it becomes clear that the prediction wasn't about the virgin or the child. It was about the king of Assyria and how soon he would come to kick butt. "by the time the child knows right from wrong" "6 or 5 years" (Jerusalem Bible). The doctrine is just one more example of shameless charlatans leading ignorant dupes, through partial truth, based on poor scholarship. db ------------------B.A. Biology&Religion - Loma Linda University Anatomy and Physiology - LLU School of Medicine Embryology - La Sierra University Biblical languages - Pacific Union College Bible doctrines - Walla Walla College [This message has been edited by doctrbill, 07-02-2003]
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
Hi Schraff,
Long time no see.I'm great! Well, good. OK ... I've been worse. How about you? Glad to see you are still in here banging heads together.Feels like homecoming. db
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
quote: I'd believe that. The story sold well in Egypt too, where the holy family (Mary, Joseph, and Jesus) reminded them of the holy family (Isis, Osiris, and Horus).
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
quote: Perhaps, but the majority of people were probably as superstitious then as they are now. If the Romans were attracted it may have been because they were bored with their old religion; looking for something fresh. At least that's often how it goes nowadays.
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
IMO the whole virgin birth thing was imagined by a few apostles who figured it was a cool idea and couldn't read the scriptures well enough to realize that the prophecy [Isaiah 7] had nothing to do with "virgin birth" and everything to do with Assyrian invasion.
As for Joseph thinking to "put her away," wouldn't you if she were pregnant by someone other than yourself? (assuming, of course, that you are male). About the stoning ... Jews were not allowed to do that under Roman occupation. How many Jewish girls were waddling around Palestine carrying a "gift from God" via Roman soldiers, whether by consent or not? Besides, saying you got pregnant by the "Holy Spirit" is like saying you got pregnant under the influence. Remember Lot's daughters? db
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
That's an interesting sermonette, but the topic is "virgin birth." Have you anything to say on that?
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
quote: I don't think so.
quote: Where, in this sermonette, have you addressed the issue of "virgin birth"?Have you actually read teh seventh chapter of the book of Isaiah? Wouldn't this be a good time to do so? db ------------------"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."
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doctrbill Member (Idle past 2793 days) Posts: 1174 From: Eugene, Oregon, USA Joined: |
I am beginning to wonder if you are incorrigible, although I must say, in your favor, that this last post was clear, concise and much more readable than previous ones.
Thank you for that.quote:Of course it is exactly what you said. I was quoting you!! quote:And your reason for believing this is ... ? quote:There were many who were said to have been born of a virgin. I'm sure there are others in here with that info. at their fingertips. quote:Would it kill you to do the research yourself? Besides, it is a moot point. The wording of Isaiah 7:14 makes it clear that he is not discussing a woman who'd never had sex. The Hebrews had a special word for that and Isaiah did not use that word. But the Greeks did not have a special word to indicate the sexual experience of a woman, so their word parthenos may be understood either way. Thus the confusion among those who could not read Isaiah in Hebrew. Matthew and Luke were among them. db ------------------Have you graduated from Sunday School?
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