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Author Topic:   That whole jesus thing is a load of tosh
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 16 of 30 (45009)
07-03-2003 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Peter
07-03-2003 5:21 AM


Peter writes:

quote:
Could the 'virgin birth' story have been a deliberate
attempt to win over Roman support for christianity?

The Roman religion was, after all, filled with demi-gods.


Don't forget that the mythology surrounding Jesus is pretty much identical to that surrounding Mithra and Dionysus. It would be disingenuous to think that there is no connection.

------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!


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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 17 of 30 (45012)
07-03-2003 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by PaulK
07-03-2003 3:48 AM


quote:
it seems likely that the story was fairly well established in the Christian community at the time of writing

I'd believe that. The story sold well in Egypt too, where the holy family (Mary, Joseph, and Jesus) reminded them of the holy family (Isis, Osiris, and Horus).


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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 18 of 30 (45014)
07-03-2003 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Peter
07-03-2003 5:21 AM


quote:
Could the 'virgin birth' story have been a deliberate
attempt to win over Roman support for christianity?

Perhaps, but the majority of people were probably as superstitious then as they are now. If the Romans were attracted it may have been because they were bored with their old religion; looking for something fresh. At least that's often how it goes nowadays.


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Peter
Member (Idle past 1967 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 19 of 30 (45036)
07-04-2003 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by doctrbill
07-03-2003 11:10 PM


True, but isn't much of the early christain representations
of God etc. basically copies of statues of Zues and Jove?

That seems a deliberate 'look we're not so different' kind of
tactic. The Romans would even have tolerated christianity if
they hadn't been so closed minded as to attack the state ... or
freedom oriented and subversive depending on your view of the
Romans I suppose


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nator
Member (Idle past 214 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 30 (45051)
07-04-2003 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by doctrbill
07-02-2003 10:28 PM


I'm great!

I think you'll have a good time here, and I hope you stick around if you can.

A


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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 30 (45907)
07-13-2003 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by nator
07-04-2003 8:17 AM


Look at this then
If Mary was lying to Joseph then she could have a telepathic machine because the Holy Spirit appears in dreams to Joseph and advice him .
Or is she an alien and call her comrades on an Ovni (The bethleem Star event).
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DBlevins
Member (Idle past 1819 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 22 of 30 (45911)
07-13-2003 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by taah03
02-28-2003 4:28 PM


My take on this ...
IMO The whole virgin birth thing was an attempt by Joseph and Mary to protect her life after she became pregnant out of wedlock, by Joseph. If I am not mistaken it was a stoning offense, but I could be wrong.
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 23 of 30 (45917)
07-13-2003 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by DBlevins
07-13-2003 6:55 PM


IMO the whole virgin birth thing was imagined by a few apostles who figured it was a cool idea and couldn't read the scriptures well enough to realize that the prophecy [Isaiah 7] had nothing to do with "virgin birth" and everything to do with Assyrian invasion.

As for Joseph thinking to "put her away," wouldn't you if she were pregnant by someone other than yourself? (assuming, of course, that you are male).

About the stoning ... Jews were not allowed to do that under Roman occupation. How many Jewish girls were waddling around Palestine carrying a "gift from God" via Roman soldiers, whether by consent or not?

Besides, saying you got pregnant by the "Holy Spirit" is like saying you got pregnant under the influence.

Remember Lot's daughters?

db


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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 30 (45957)
07-14-2003 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by doctrbill
07-13-2003 9:07 PM


Most of the prophecies in the Old Testament made you think that it talks about nation restauration (and that was what Israel thought on that time).
They thought that the Messias would be a warrior of some sort who will be sent to free them from the other nations ocupation.
But the prophecies are talking about the overall salvation plan of God .It talks about Jesus coming to the world,executing Godīs SPIRITUAL salvation plan and about the salvation of the gentiles.
Paul says Israel didnīt recognize Jesus and only after the salvation of the gentiles Israel will be safe(spiritualy)
Then the scriptures are talking about spiritual salvation in a figurative way
Remember Jesus appeared to Paul.
Remember also the apostles did miracles and expelled demons in the name of Jesus.
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 25 of 30 (45959)
07-14-2003 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Newborn
07-14-2003 10:09 AM


That's an interesting sermonette, but the topic is "virgin birth." Have you anything to say on that?
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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 30 (46476)
07-18-2003 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by doctrbill
07-14-2003 10:22 AM


in my last reply i include the "virgin birth" prophecy.
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 27 of 30 (46481)
07-18-2003 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Newborn
07-18-2003 8:30 PM


quote:
newborn msg. #26: in my last reply i include the "virgin birth" prophecy.

I don't think so.

quote:
newborn msg. #24: Most of the prophecies in the Old Testament made you think that it talks about nation restauration (and that was what Israel thought on that time).
They thought that the Messias would be a warrior of some sort who will be sent to free them from the other nations ocupation.
But the prophecies are talking about the overall salvation plan of God .It talks about Jesus coming to the world,executing Godīs SPIRITUAL salvation plan and about the salvation of the gentiles.
Paul says Israel didnīt recognize Jesus and only after the salvation of the gentiles Israel will be safe(spiritualy)
Then the scriptures are talking about spiritual salvation in a figurative way
Remember Jesus appeared to Paul.
Remember also the apostles did miracles and expelled demons in the name of Jesus.

Where, in this sermonette, have you addressed the issue of "virgin birth"?
Have you actually read teh seventh chapter of the book of Isaiah? Wouldn't this be a good time to do so?

db

------------------
"If God created Nature, then the Law of Nature is the Law of God."


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Replies to this message:
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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 30 (46617)
07-20-2003 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by doctrbill
07-18-2003 9:06 PM


That is exactly what i said.
After all is you that needs a dictionary(without offense)
One can interpret Isaiah 7 in terms of national issues but the virgin thing is like a hidden futuristic message(did some of the Israelites enemies born from a virgin? I doubt.You have to do research in these cultures and show it to me).
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Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 30 (46618)
07-20-2003 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by doctrbill
07-18-2003 9:06 PM


That is exactly what i said.
After all is you that needs a dictionary(without offense)
One can interpret Isaiah 7 in terms of national issues but the virgin thing is like a hidden futuristic message concerning Jesus and not anyone of Israelites enemies.Did some of the Israelites enemies born from a virgin? I doubt.You have to do research in these cultures and show it to me.
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doctrbill
Member (Idle past 808 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 30 of 30 (46661)
07-21-2003 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Newborn
07-20-2003 11:23 PM


Bethulah versus Parthenos
I am beginning to wonder if you are incorrigible, although I must say, in your favor, that this last post was clear, concise and much more readable than previous ones.

Thank you for that.

quote:
That is exactly what i said.
Of course it is exactly what you said. I was quoting you!!
quote:
One can interpret Isaiah 7 in terms of national issues but the virgin thing is like a hidden futuristic message ...
And your reason for believing this is ... ?
quote:
... did some of the Israelites enemies born from a virgin? I doubt.
There were many who were said to have been born of a virgin. I'm sure there are others in here with that info. at their fingertips.
quote:
You have to do research in these cultures and show it to me.
Would it kill you to do the research yourself?

Besides, it is a moot point. The wording of Isaiah 7:14 makes it clear that he is not discussing a woman who'd never had sex. The Hebrews had a special word for that and Isaiah did not use that word. But the Greeks did not have a special word to indicate the sexual experience of a woman, so their word parthenos may be understood either way. Thus the confusion among those who could not read Isaiah in Hebrew. Matthew and Luke were among them.

db

------------------
Have you graduated from Sunday School?


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