How can we be possibly be happy in Heaven?

Well Brian, it goes something like this; according to the fundamentalist church I dragged myself from kicking and screaming, all of us born-again types won't feel any sorrow over loved ones lost in hell. Why not? 1. When the "gospel" was presented to loved ones, they rejected it, and so hell was their choice. 2. We born-again types will be so-o-o-o happy being in the "loving arms" of God that we won't even care about our loved ones in hell. and 3. All questions and concerns will be answered for us when we get to heaven. It all sounded so nice at the time, but I've since realized how selfish and circular it was. Hope I helped.

It is my opinion that Jesus was probably heavily influenced by John the Baptist who was probably heavily influenced by the Essenes who seem to have introduced the whole notion of hell-as-punishment into Judaism. That's where the idea of judgment after death seems to emanate from. Gehenna was Jerusalem's garbage dump.

Selective memory?? Now that church I ran from screaming for mercy always taught me to back up what I...we(group think)believed with scripture passages, and I don't remember once being taught about God giving us selective memory so that we wouldn't remember our loved ones(in hell). I don't even think there is a scripture on it at all, but who knows; at one time I had the "faith" to try and find a verse that I could twist in order to substantiate whatever I was tought to believe. I was'nt a charismatic so I didn't believe in handling snakes(not all charismatics believe that anyway), but snake-handling charismatics will point to an obscure text about taking up snakes and not being harmed as a way to continue the practice. Then, inevitably they will get bit and end up dead. And what do you know, their charismatic buddies will say in defense: God decided it was his/her time to die, and we have to accept it. So, finally, we have in my opinion an example of religion going too far, and selective memory is just one device they use to bolster their beliefs. Still sounds to me like this God is in the business of forcing himself on us, doesn't it??[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-05-2003]

Oh, excuse me for not validating the snakebite story from scripture, but I'm not at home right now, and I don't carry a bible everywhere I go. I can tell you that it is John Dominic Crossan's(a leading biblical scholar) opinion and mine too, that some verses in Mark were added late, therefor we agree! If people debating this topic haven't already done so, may I suggest a reading: "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography" by the scholar already noted.

Sorry This Is A late Response, I was away For the weekend. You know, I would also be surprised if "Enoch" was the earliest literature on hell. As I have read in, "From Jesus to Christ", and "When Jesus Became God", the book of Enoch does say that hell is a firey place of punishment, and the Essenes did teach this. According to these books and also Josephus' writings, the Essenes were destroyed as a religious sect when Ceasar Titus and the Roman army took over Israel and sacked Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although "Enoch" could have been authored by the Essene community, and I do agree that the story of the rich man and Lazarus probably came from "Enoch", I also agree that the idea of hell came into Judaism, and later, Christianity, through a number of earlier sources. These sources, to name a couple, were the exposure of the ancient Jews to the Babylonian Captivity (i.e. Daniel, etc.),where they were exposed not only to Babylonian religion (the gods Marduk, Tiamat, etc.) but also the Persian religion of Zoroasterianim which taught separation of good and evil, fire worship and all that. Another source was the greek idea of hades which is not the hell of the New Testament, but comes out of greek mythology. one may consult Homer's "Odysse" on this.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-09-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-09-2003]

Well... if we're not laughing in heaven, we certainly are laughing on earth! No Drano, No Paino!! By the way, people who are fundamentalist-biblical-literalists(I was one) tend to think that other fundamentalist-biblical-literalists are on the wrong track about blood tranfusions. That is another example of how some people end up dead when taking the Bible too literally. I don't remember the passage, but it says something like "the life is in the blood". Maybe this passage is about genetics, but I don't think so. More likely, it's about evil spirits and blood-letting. What say you?

Enough of the jabber already. Since the overall forum is biblical innerancy or not, I'll give just one example (among many) why I think the Bible contains error.(stay tuned!) Hint: It has something to do with bad ol Judas.

OK, your on! Matthew 27 relates how Judas betrayed Jesus, led the men to Jesus, then went and hanged himself. That is obviously a suicide according to the NRSV text. Peter in Acts 1 relates to a crowd of believers that Judas led the men to Jesus, but then he fell down in his field and spilled his guts. That story is not obviously a suicide. Judas could have tripped over a rock or got showered by hornets and then fell. Maybe he was pushed by a vengeful christian. We don't know because Peter doesn't go into detail. Anyway you slice the pie, Judas Iscariot, the betrayer of Jesus, dies different deaths, and the death in Acts may not be a suicide. Also, there were not TWO Judases who betrayed Jesus unless you wish to read into the bible that Judas, a brother of Jesus, went along with Judas Iscariot. But you can't because nowhere does the the text say that. Also, you can't say that Judas lived after being disemboweled and then hung himself later for two reasons; they didn't have modern surgery with which to save a disemboweled person back then, and you can't read that idea into the text either. Nevertheless, I'm willing to hear your twists and turns on the matter. All this makes me wonder if Judas is happy in heaven; after all, we are supposed to believe that he was used by the devil to betray Jesus, but it was all in God's plan in order to save mankind anyway. So God is using the devil who is using Judas who is betraying Jesus who is saving us from our sins which God hates in the first place! Judas is not happy, he's angry.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-10-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-10-2003]

Whatever happened to: "the heavens declare the glory of God." Actually I would agree with you Jorge! It really is about faith. PM[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-10-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-10-2003]

No, my point was not to debate a contradiction in the Bible concerning Judas Iscariot. I was trying to show how the Bible is not without error. My opinion is that God had to work with the fact that the people who wrote the Bible were fallible, and so the two different deaths of Judas passages are relevant to the ? of the Bible being inerrant or not; but if you want me to discuss judas on the "Bible Contradictions" thread, I will. PM

Right on Jorge! In spite of all I've learned(not much by the way) as a self-designated amateur science enthusiast(having no formal science training other than a few college level courses), I still believe in God. It IS a matter of volition, and it is a personal journey; one that is both discouraging and uplifting at times.
One can both realize that the Orion Nebula, for example, is belching out newborn stars and planets and do the observational science. One can also choose to believe(or not) that Orion is awsome and beautiful and is in some sense a manifestation of God. That does not discount one's ability to doubt and question.

OK, I'll take Judas out of this thread, and heaven(he,s angry there anyway).Besides some would question whether he should be in heaven, and that's another possible thread altogether![This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-12-2003]

It is my understanding that the "Angel of the Lord" may or may not be the Angel that is walking around on the earth in the book of Job, and challenges God to test Job's faith(many christians believe this angel to be the devil or Satan; meaning accuser in hebrew), but my reading of Jewish religious history, tells me that the ancient Jews believed that God had a special angel who was specifically commissioned to punish, destroy, test, etc. In other words Satan was God's hitman! He worked for God. I think a careful reading of God's commands to Satan in Job will show this. But I am not sure that "Angel of the Lord" and the accuser of Job are the same.My theory is that some Jews(i.e. Essenes, etc.) during the intertestament period decided to make God and Satan enemies, so in some sense the Judeo-Christian-Islamic World has always had two or more gods. What do you think?...By the way, what does this have to do with being happy in heaven?![This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-12-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-12-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-12-2003]

Hey Rei, that is all intensely interesting because I remember reading some material along the same lines, although I can't remember where. I'll have to look thru my small library at home to see if I can find it. Your comparison of 1st Chronicles and 2nd Samuel which obviously equates Satan and the LORD, I believe is astonishingly accurate! How do the fundamentalists respond to this?? You have also confirmed my suspicion that the Jews of the Babylonian exile were heavily influenced by Babylonian and Persian religion! Please provide some extra-biblical documentation on what you have written, as this is fascinating, and may prove helpful in the Planetwide Mission to Deprogram Fundamentalists (PMDF). By the way, explain why Lucifer is something completely different?[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-12-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-12-2003][This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-13-2003]

Well then, if it's the devil that greets us in heaven, then by your reckoning, we will all have goats to sacrifice daily!! On the other hand, if it's Satan, then heaven is really hell because that's where christian theology puts Satan in the end anyway, then again it could be Yahweh(or Yehwah, or Yohwuh, or...) and we will all fight in ancient Jewish wars, kill our own people for eating lobster, etc., make our little boys scream in pain, and fall down in terror at the feet of a Volcano! Then of course there's the trinity, by which the "church" didn't fully acknowledge or teach about until after the Arian Controversy( that's another subject), AND the trinity is a serious case of multiple personality disorder. No, we won't be happy in heaven regardless of where our loved ones are.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-13-2003]