The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life (Lost /Reformed Thread)

My point preceeding this comment was that Adam, the first man created, was very intelligent. I am quite sure that the first specimen of a human being created by God would have in every way been the envy of all who followed him. That would include the envy of his intelligence IMO.On this side of the fall of man into sin, we are all damaged goods.The problem is "If he was so intelligent, they why did he make such a huge blunder to disobey God's instructions ?" That is a good question. I did not see this evidence. I did see that you had such an interpretation. But the account reads that the awesome barrier to partaking of the tree of life was not there before man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When he ate, the barrier of the cherubim, the flamming sword, and the expulsion followed.The way you view the account, you imply that the barrier and expulsion first existed but was removed when Adam took of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.This implication of yours that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the path to the tree of life, is a dreadful twisting of the account. It is not novel. It is simply turning the story upside down on its head. These two trees were presented as forms of food. Food is something you take into yourself. As they say "You are what you eat." The only warning God gave to Adam was to be careful what he ate.He was to be careful what got into him, internally. He ate the wrong food. He ate of the forbidden food. He was warned. He was cautioned. There in Genesis there is no positive aspect of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that God mentions.You imply that you know better than God. This is the result of man having taken the wrong food.As I said before, man gained a knowledge of good and evil. And he is very proud of this knowledge. But he does not have the life power to carry out the good that he knows. And he is weak to resist the evil that he knows.These two trees represent that man, the neutral man created by God, could be either joined to God as the divine and uncreated eternal life or he could be joined to God's enemy Satan. The former was unto God's eternal purpose to be expressed as divine life within man. The latter was to man's destruction and death with sin, degradation, corruption.One tree was a way of dependence. The other forbidden tree was a path of rebellion against God, a thrust for independence from God, and eventually a revolt to overthrow the God.It had an attractive sounding name. But its end is the eternal damnation of the lake of fire. This was Satan's tree.Man needs the life of God. And the NT says that fallen man was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) This alienation from the life of God came about when Adam was excluded from taking in the tree of life. It is restored through the Son of God Jesus Christ."He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:13)"He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides pon him." (John 3:36)I think you should abandon the idea that God chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as the way for man to arrive at the life of God of the tree of life. It was that tree of the knowledge of good and evil which resulted in man being "alienated from the life of God."Latter, I believe in Exodus, God tells Israel that He has set before them good and evil, and that they should choose good that they may live. Apparently this argues for your position.However, we eventually see that the good is God Himself. Eventually this choosing of good is to take into our being the Triune God Himself embodied in the Son and imparted through the Holy Spirit. I see some validity to that statement.But how can we argue that Adam chose wrongly? Perhaps by the providence and sovereignty of God it all came out for the better. For example - "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Rom. 8:28)By God's sovereignty, we might say that the saved among us, are wiser. I would not argue about that. But that is different from changing how the account of Genesis goes. God did not want man to take of the tree of life or man would die, period. I know a child gives names to stuffed animals and pets. However my point is the managerial prowness of the first created man. Arthur Custance wrote a article in the Doorway Papers about what it meant for Adam to give names to the animals. This defining of their nature in his naming revealed great inteligence according to Custance.And that was not one or two pets. It was all the living creatures. Frankly I don't see how one human being could do that.Man is a marvelous creation. But he must have this union with the divine and uncreated eternal life which is God Himself. He must be in an "organic" union and mingling with God. That is why he was created in the image of God.Just like the glove fits into the hand, so man was made for the eternal invisible Divine Being to fit right into him. This reality was presented to man through the tree of life in the midst of the garden.His other choice was to be joined to the one who has the authority of death - the Devil " ... He [Christ] also Himself in like manner partook of the same [flesh and blood] that He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is the devil ..." (Heb. 2:14)Adam was created to crush God's enemy. Instead he joined God's enemy. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the gateway that brought man into bondage with this god of death. He came under Satan's authority. He became polluted and corrupted. He became Satanified. And as a result the way to the life of God was barred by the cherubim of glory and the flamming sword which turned in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.I would advize you not to try to revize this terrible plunge of mankind into sin and death by speaking highly of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam must have learned to speak from God. My opinion is that the first model of a human being was superior in every way to the rest of us fallen and damaged descendents.But that is not as important as seeing that Adam was to take into himself the divine and uncreated life which is God Himself.God wanted a planet filled with people like Jesus Christ. And that is what He is going to obtain in eternity. He did not simply want a good man. He wanted a God-man. Jesus is the second man. Jesus is the last Adam. And Jesus is the first God-man a man mingled and united totally with God to express the glory of God in humanity.Do you disagree with this ? Well, it says that he gave names not to one pet but to all the animals. I regard that as a real feat of intelligence. I have no comment about this right now. The important point to me is that the education most crucial he had from God's direct instructions - "And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat; for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:16,17)[/b]You're saying "But look at all the wonderful things in which Adam was educated from eating of that forbidden tree."In essence you are arguing that it is better to disobey God and learn on your own. But the death, the agony, the judgment, the sin, the sorrow and tears, the vanity, the emptiness, the wandering, the futility, the hard taskmaster of Satan God's enemy, the shame, the murders, the rapes, the wars, the curse, the shortage of so many necessary things, the starvation, the pride, the arrogance, the prejudice ...etc.I think that only the merciful sovereignty of God could bring anything positive out of this disobedience and fall of Adam, through His divine salvation in Jesus Christ.If you warn your child not to drink a bottle of poison, I don't think you would be pleased that he thought "I think I will not listen and drink this poison so that I may be better educated."He thus has two problems:1.) He is now in a situation of enmity with you. Though you still love him, he has still trangressed your word, misunderstood your heart, and disobeyed your instructions.2.) He is being destroyed by the poison which he has taken into him.Similarly, taking in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:1.) Made man transgress God's perfect will. He is now a sinner in enmity with the holy and perfect God. He has an adversarial relationship to his Maker.2.) He has not only trangressed. He is internally poisoned. The poison is polluting him, rendering him to malfunction, and killing him.He needs forgiveness and he needs healing from the poison. The need for a judicial redemption and an organic salvation to flush out Satan and impart the divine life is now the story of the rest of the Bible. I am not sure what you mean by man's exclusivity. I said that the first created man was in a superb condition mentally. That is all.
If you want to argue that for example, Solomon or Albert Einstien was wiser than Adam, well, that's at least arguable. My only point is the newly created human mind which Adam possessed was in great condition.The high IQ of Adam is not a major doctrine for me. I don't think I will remark any more on this. You are welcomed to see it differently.So I will move past this point now. Mrs. Dash ? Did I miss something ? More to the point is his failure to circumvent the law of sin and of death apart from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. That is the Spirit of life incidently."There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." (Rom. 8:1,2)Those who now receive Jesus Christ have at their disposal the life of God embodied in the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This divine life of Christ contains a higher law which can overcome the law of sin and of death. That is the law which Paul could not overcome in the previous chapter. He ends the previous chapter with these words:"I find then the law with me who wills to do the good, that the evil is present with me." (7:21)You see man gained the knowledge of good and evil but lacked the power to perform the good and resist the evil."For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man. But I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members." (vs.22,23)You see this evil force is at work in the members of Paul's body. This came about from Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Paul knows the good and delights in it. The law of God instructions him to perform the good. But in his members is the law of sin. He is a captive. Adam reached from independence. He got captivity. He got slavery to the law of sin and of death. Don't you see this?"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?

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Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!

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So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin." (vs. 24,25)How will man be delivered from this law of sin and death ? It is by the redemption of Christ firtly allowing him to come to the holiness of God's Person. And it is by the Spirit of life which is in Christ Jesus freeing him from the law of sin and death and the wretch situation of self condemnation."[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)This Savior and Lord Jesus is the tree of life for us today. He is the Spirit of life. He is the life giving Spirit. He conveys God Himself into man that man may learn to live in union with the eternal divine Person.I will cut my response here for length's sake.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : Spelling choiceEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.

My point was not that he was superior in intelligence to all the beasts. I was comparing the first man to all the other descendent human beings.While I think it is humble of you to concede a point, that was not the point I was making. What Adam before the fall had a more direct communication with God from which he derived the essentials of wisdom that he needed. The human conscience seems to have been like an emergence brake that was activated when man left this direct communion with God.Somehow with man God created an "emergency brake system" of the human conscience in the event that Adam left this direct communion with God.Now while I do not understand everything about these two trees, it seems evident that there was an immediate consequence to Adam's taking the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." ... she took of its fruit, and she also gave [some] to her husband with her, and he ate. And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves." (See Gen. 3:6,7)Something undoubtedly took place when Adam ate. The Apostle Paul says that the evil spirit operates in the sons of disobedience."And you, though dead in your offenses and sins, in which we once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit which is now operating in the sons of disobedience ... and were by nature the children of wrath." (See Eph. 2:1-3)The eating of that forbidden tree invited the Satanic spirit to begin to operate in "the sons of disobedience". I take that to mean the sons of the disobedient Adam.And somehow the conscience of man was awakened. Or it became engaged in a new way in which it previously was not necessary to be engaged.The Satanic spirit in the air which was left over from a pre-Adamic rebellion, was lurking, seeking opportunity to ruin God's plan. He infested man and began to operate in man. He changed the nature of man and caused man to be by nature a child of the wrath of a righteous and holy Creator - " ... and were by nature the children of wrath.". I think I have attempted to reply above. However, my understanding of this forbidden fruit is different. It represented a way of existence which was in rebellion to God. I do think that when we try to analyze how man could be without knowledge or wisdom we may have problems.That tree was like a line in the sand that Adam could not cross. He could think about the tree. He could sing about it if he wished. He could ask God about it. He could talk about. He could do any of these things. But he must not eat of it.Once he ate, he crossed the line.It helps me to realize that the command was simply not to eat of that tree. I would not venture to conjecture too far into area you muse on. I can't say that Adam had no knowledge. I can't even say that Adam had no wisdom.All I can say is the the command not to eat was the line beyond which Adam was not to pass. I think this is what we have to put emphasis on.I will skip down a little. Here again I think I, if not you, get into trouble. This kind of thought is like saying that Adam had no mind before he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.I do not think that this is the case. And it may be difficult for us even to imagine the pre-fallen Adam because we are all fallen people on this side of his damaged being.I don't think I can really fully know too much about what it was like to be a neutral man, a good man, prior to the fall. That is a position which no one of us has ever had.I would not speculate too much on what kind of thoughts this first created but neutral man had. I would speculate a little bit. The Bible says that the woman was deceived. Adam is held more responsible as if he was not deceived." ... Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been quite deceived, has fallen into transgression." (1 Tim. 2:14)The serpent is a liar and an enemy of God. Though he is malignant he appears as a angel of light. [b]" ... for Satan himself transfigures himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if also his ministeres transfigure themselves into ministers of righteousness ..." (See 2 Cor. 11:14,15)I believe that the mandate for Adam to excercise dominion over all the earth and over the creeping things was violated when he ate of the tree at the suggestion of the creeping thing - the serpent.The question of what was a God opposing liar doing in God's paradise has been a puzzle to us ever since. Adam, had he acted according to the divine mandate should have not listened to any creeping beast telling him to directly transgress the instructions of the Creator.When he ate, he crossed the line. He came out from his neutral position and was now under the authority of God's enemy Satan. Adam was created to guard the garden. And I believe that the two trees were mutually exclusive. Had he taken of the tree of life he in conjunction with God would have destroyed the lying serpent from the paradise of God forever.Adam was not created to be under the Devil. He was created to guard the garden and most likely participate in the Devil's execution.There was a triangle situation here in Genesis. At one end was God and the tree of life. At the other end was Satan and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In between the two was Adam. The destiny of the creation would be determined by which choice Adam would make out of his free will. I know that Adam did not eat at all from the tree of life. I do not know exactly why. The Devil got to him first.It is usually Satan's way to rush ahead of God's plan with an imitation. The enemy of God knows something about the truth. He runs ahead to preemtively derail God's plans. Judging from the rest of the Bible, it meant everything. In the end of the Bible the tree of life prevails.But at this time Christ Jesus is the divine life. We should think of Jesus as the tree of life in reality today and for eternity. I would refer you to the entire Gospel of John.Pay attention to the usage of the word life in every chapter.I would encourage you to read two books by Witness Lee - The Knowledge of Life" and "The Experience of Life".Examine Living Stream Ministry - Publisher of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Find the bookstore. Or search on Affirmation and Critique. Look at the titles to some of the articles which mention LifeHere is the link to Affirmation and Critique Christian periodical - Affirmation & Critique - A Journal of Christian ThoughtThe tree of life meant what we would call REGENERATION.
It stood for God dispensing His divine life into man.Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regeneration Concerning evolution of man, I would concede that the human conscience can and has developed through culture sometimes.I don't think this is Darwinian Evolution. I think the enfluence of God's word upon culture sometimes makes the human conscience even of unbeliever's a little more keen to morality. Then I guess I am getting lost as to what IS your point. That it was somehow overlooked or under appreciated, I cannot argue.But they had the disadvantage of being tempted away from it by the enemy of God.It is hard to know what could have happened. We know from the account what DID happen. They chose to believe the lies of Satan embodied in the serpent. We who have the Gospel do not have to make that same mistake.We can come to Christ moment by moment for the divine life. We can allow the divine Person to dwell in us by letting Christ make His home in our hearts through faith:"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..." (Eph. 3:17)We can come to Christ for the life of God. We can come to Christ to live God and to allow God to live in us. Amen to that. That tree of life is Jesus Christ. "In Him was life ..." Not really. Once having heard the Gospel, it is our choice to come to Jesus that we may have life.Once we are redeemed and born again we can come moment by moment to learn to live in the sphere and realm of the living and indwelling Christ.Eventually every believer will be swallowed up within and without in this eternal life which is Christ, which is the very Triune God Himself. That is probably true. But the tree of life was there. Its being there was not meaningless. It is just that in God's providence and in His sovereignty man has taken the long route through Adam's disobedience.I think our main concern should be with what we do with the life of God today. We should not be too over occupied with analyzing why Adam failed. It is only profitable perhaps as a warning that we could also fail to take in Christ as the life of God that we may have eternal life.Having said this, I do not intend to change, though, the account of the story by any means. I am not willing to change what Genesis says in order to emphasize some theology or philosophy. We have to work with what is written.I think I will conclude here. I think in this post we find some matters that we concur together on, unless I don't understand some of your comments. That's possible. I would only reply here that the New Testament says that Christ Himself is the wisdom of the believers. It is not as if God gives us a package of "wisdom" apart from Jesus Himself. Jesus becomes the disciple's wisdom:"But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the wisdom of God and the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:24)"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption." (1 Cor. 1:30) I don't disagree with this because God's intention was to save man from that alienation from the life of God.God could still speak to man and give His laws to man. The indwelling of God as life could not take place until the redemptive act of Jesus. He was judged for the sins of the world. Justice was accomplished upon the Son of God on behalf of all who believe. That opened the way for God to dispense His life in His Holy Spirit into man's human spirit to regenerate him.I think I mentioned before that God intended not to leave man alienated from the life of God. The symbols of the slain cattle foreshadowed the redemption of Christ and the justification imputed to the sinner through Christ.This symbolism is repeated many many times in the Old Testament in various types and figures. The goal: to bring man back to the life of God that God and man may be united to be one.I will stop here for length's sake. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

But below you write this which seems contradictory to me. I don't think God would do this alone. He wanted man to coordinate and participate in execution of the serpent and his whole realm of rebellion.I don't think that the Creator will deal direcly with the Rebel. He would create another creature, Man. And with the cooperation of the consenting creature God would destroy the rebellious creature.I think delegation of deputy authority was on the heart of God and still is. He wanted Adam to coordinate with Him eliminate from paradise the lying serpent. Well put. But not only does it lead to our survival. It leads to the cooperative man coordinating with God to destroy God's enemy. What you call evolution I would call transformation or conformation. Or I should say in the case of Christ the last Adam, it is transformation. In the case of the first Adam, it is corruption - a downward trend.transformation - "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18)"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind that you may prove whoat the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Rom. 12:2) conformation - "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers..." (Rom. 8:29)My understanding of this change has nothing to do with biological evolution. Doubt was put into their minds. The serpent caused them to doubt God's heart. When they ate, they crossed the line into trangression. I think God knew everything. This is rather mysterious. Ephesians says that God is displaying His multivarious wisdom to the principalities in the heavenlies.I have noticed that in Genesis there is no direct command to eat of the tree of life. It is simply one of the trees which Adam had the right to partake of.I have also noticed that it is perculiar why Adam did not partake of it right away. I was discussing our conversation with another Chritian brother after my meeting this morning. He pointed out some very good things.I am slightly more sympathetic to some aspects of your views previously mentioned. The fall of man was not one. It was in four stages. And to live by the knowledge of good and evil is superior to the next lower stage to which man fell - human government.The man who truly lives by conscience, the brother told me, does not need human government. And conversly, the man who lives directly by communion with God does not need human conscience.That is a mouth full may present some objections. But I think he had a point which I previously did not include.He also spoke an analogy of a airplane landing on an aircraft carrier. It seeks to hook on to one of so many cables stretched across the ship. These cables are meant to prevent the plane from sliding off altogether into the water.The last cable God threw out to halt the progressive decline of man in his falls, was the law of God.So I see a fall from direct communion with God to the awakening of human conscience to the formation of human government to the giving of the law of God. I this regard there was not one fall but a series of downward falls away from God.I think that this allows us to view some positive aspect of the knowledge of good and evil.Having said all this I would again repeat that in the sense of God's full salvation - Christ Himself the Person is the wisdom of God by which the saved are to live. He is also the life of God. And of course He took care of the problem separating man from the life of God.He expressed the glory of God meeting that demand. He expressed the holiness of God in a man. And He was righteous absolutely and bore the righteous judgement of man's sins in Himself as our substitute. He paid the debt to the law of God. He redeemed the believers our from under the curse of the law. I don't know enough about how you are using the term evolution. I do like this kind of utterance. He did forbid them to eat of that tree. And love is one aspect of God. There are other aspects of God.This tree was not the tree of gambling or the tree of stealing. It was not the tree of murder or the tree of fornication. All these base things are obviously bad.The subtlety is that it appears so noble and so right. What could be more right than the knowledge of good and evil. But what I am not sure you grasp is that behind this great sounding name was the principle of rebellion against the authority of God.Can you understand what I am trying to convey ? Satan first came to man behind something not obviously unclean and evil but behind something sounding SO very noble and good.I am not sure you GRASP the pernicious subtlety of the enemy here. Listen, it was called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But in actuality is was a TREE OF DEATH !Pure speculation here. I have said before, perhaps as in the book of Job God and Satan were in a contest. Perhaps God said that He would give man a choice between Himself and His enemy. Maybe God said in essence:"We will have two trees. One will be representative of you. It will be called the Tree of Death. The other will represent Me, God. It will be called the Tree of Life."Then maybe the Devil said "No. No. Do not call it the Tree of Death. Call it something nice like ... the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil."Then maybe God replied:"Okay. I will call it the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, I will WARN the man that to EAT of it will bring death !"This is just my imagination. However, I think that what was going on there in Genesis was similar to the contest we see between God and His accusing advasary Satan in the book of Job. They laid out terms of the contest.Possible, you think ? It is a wrong view of true love to assume that there is no correction or punishment involved in love. This is an extreme permissiveness which assumes that love means ANYTHING GOES.If you are a parent, you must have noticed that at times your love was a swat in the seat of the pants ? Am I right ?If you loved your child, you must have noticed that Love sometimes involved restriction, discipline, education, correction, and hand upside the fanny of a loved but naughty child. Ring any bells maybe? I'm a little tired now. But I think you very much desire to somehow work a regard for biological evolution into the Bible.I just have no comment on that now.It has been a pleasure. I will cut short here for length's sake. God bless our further reading and meditating on His holy word.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Adam must have known that God was the Creator. And Adam knew how to speak from God rather than another human being. He also knew that it was God who was responsible for his wife.He must have known that it was God who gave all the beings life, so that He should know the most about life. Without any doubt the highest man who ever lived is Jesus Christ. He lived directly by the Father's life within Him. He did not live by the knowledge of good and evil apart from His Father.Adam responding directly to God was a higher state of existence then Adam in bondage to Satan with all the knowledge of good and evil.He was created that way from the start. The only thing he did not have was God Himself indwelling Him. But he did have a communion with God which instructed him of all things God needed from him.He was dependent upon God. He was very good. What he needed to be aware of was given to him by direct fellowship with His Creator. When he fell from that state two things happened.Firstly, he was joined to Satan the advasary of God. He was Satanified.Secondly, the God created human conscience as a brake system awoke to restrict man somewhat from further degradations.The story of Cain and Abel follows. In Cain you have the first recorded instance of a man NOT obeying his conscience. The result is the invention of religion and murder.Cain invented a way to come to God apart from the revealed way. He ignored revelation and invented his own procedure to approach God.THough it is not explicitly written, I believe that the offering of the cattle with blood was the worship that Adam and Eve learned from God and taught to thier children. I think they learned this from the event of God slaying the cattle and clothing them with the skins when they had sinned.I think that somewhere along the line God had revealed to Adam and Eve that they should offer this kind of offering occasionally. It was a worship based on revelation. Cain ingnored that and invented his own religion, the world's first religion.Cain also would not resist the temptation and sin lurking in his heart. He suppressed his awakened conscience and murdered his brother. He also had no sense of remorse except for himself.The knowledge of good and evil had passed on to Cain. But Cain did not perform the good that he knew and did not resist the evil that he knew.The further history of Genesis reveals how all of mankind fell lower and lower into immorality. Obviously, the knowledge of good and evil in the human conscience did not stop the whole society from being wicked continually.So the flood came. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was saved.Following this further decline and universal judgement we have God instituting human government. What they had before was anarchy. But I mean anarchy in a positive sense. Everyone was to live by their human conscience - by the knowledge of good and evil. But it became anarchy in the worst sense and the whole society became wicked.After the flood it was determined that the principle should be that those who did live by conscience should excercise government over those who would not.In principle this is why we have governments. I say in principle. It is because some men will not listen to their conscience. Therefore there is government to limit and restrict the behavior of those who will not listen to conscience.My purpose here is just to show how Genesis traces the successive declines of the human race from its creation. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Comment withdrawn.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Baily,What do you think about this paragraph? What do you think about this? One paradox it presents for me is that in the garden before the incarnation of God as the man Jesus Christ Adam was placed before the tree of life to receive the life of God or God as life. Yet according to this paragraph God had to be mingled with humanity before He could be life to man.I will be reading more and meditating on this problem. I would like to hear your comment.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Do you think that God held the existence of the Tree of Life as a secret from Adam? I don't see that because in the middle of the garden was the tree of life.We are told that the tree of life was in the midst of the garden. It is mentioned FIRST and the forbidden tree is mentioned SECOND." ... the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen 1:9b)Is it logical that what we are informed of first would have been kept secret from Adam ?The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was specifically mentioned to Adam in verse 17 because of the prohibition. I think this is the less likely interpretation. But refuting it from the text of Genesis is certainly not easy either.One thing is clear. If Adam did not know the significance of the tree of life before he disobeyed, he certainly became aware of it afterwards.However explaining WHY Adam did not first take of the tree of life is just one of those mysteries. It is on par with trying to explain why Judas betrayed the Son of God. I don't know that. You're saying that God told the reader but Adam was not told.Too much of this interpretation suggests God intentionally trying to trip Adam up or channel him to commit error.God's sovereignty and providence is one thing. God purposely channeling Adam to mess up is another. God's providence and ability to turn all things out for good is one thing. God going out of His way to assure that Adam commits sin is another. Don't you think you are trying too hard to make God appear as the Real tempter in the story rather than the lying serpent? Again, not easy to refute from the text, admittedly. But it seems to me the less likely possibility. I wait for you to explain why God would be secretive to Adam about the tree in the middle of the garden. You are suggesting that God placed the tree of life in the middle of the garden just so Adam would NOT eat of it?This is not too logical.And I would ask you if God did NOT want man to eat of the tree of life then WHY did He simply place the cherubim with the flaming sword to guard the way to it BEFORE Adam ate of any tree?1.) I have a problem with it being there in the FIRST place if God did not intend it for man.2.) I have a problem with God waiting until Adam had disqualified himself from partaking of it. If Adam by creation was disqualified for it then there was no need to wait to guard it against his partaking. I still strongly suggest you spend more time in the Gospel of John. Notice how many times it speaks of ZOE "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us." (2 Cor. 4:7)[/b]The life and Person of the Triune God is the invisible treasure. And man was made to be the living vessel to contain this divine treasure of the Divine Person."In Him [Christ the Word] was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness was not able to overcome it." (John 1:5)This life of Christ, this life which IS Christ, comes into man and is an indwelling light. Without Him we are in darkness. Jesus Christ wants to be the indwelling and internal divine life and light to man.Early Genesis portrays this by showing man that to eat of the tree of life was to have the divine and eternal life of God. But being constituted a sinner closed off that possibility from Adam. That is until man could be redeemed and justified to receive this life of God.This is not a biological matter. This is a matter of the uncreated and divine Person mingling Himself with man to produce the union of the creature with the Creator, the humanity with the divinity. He was placed among the trees. I agree with that. But in the middle of the garden was the tree of life. It shared that spot with a forbidden tree. Maybe because you call them "fundies?" LOL.Seriously, I have not met that many fundamentalists who pay much attention to the tree of life. It is by far the less mentioned of the two trees in many discussions with mainstream fundamental Christianity.I think your responses from me are atypical. But I could be wrong. Well, this gets kind of tricky. The ground was cursed so everything that came from the ground was damaged. However, these two trees may have been some supernatural items not typical.Latter in the Bible we are told that the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus at His baptism in the form of a dove. So there is probably something going on with the appearance of these trees and the great truths which stood behind them.But I do not understand everything about this at this time. I am not troubled by that. The fallen and Satanified man came from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The good neutral man was created from God directly.The human conscience was like an emergency brake system that God designed for man. Before Adam ate it was not needed and was not in function. And he didn't miss it. He had what he needed in direction and guidance directly from God's presence.When man sinned and came under the authority of God's enemy and slanderer, the human conscience as an emmergency brake system was activated. It cannot restore man to innocency. But it can restrict the downward slide into immorality if man will listen to it.God was wise to design a break system innate in man just in case man should depart from his relationship with God.This is really a profound book. I have to roll my eyes at people who suggest that it is not divinely inspired. I don't think the human imagination alone could come up with such an account.I think the hallmarks of divine authorship are all over Genesis.
I would expect man to write something more like Pandora's Box - a box of all evils. But think about Genesis ... "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."And it is not the tree of good verses the tree of evil. That is what I would expect from the human imagination. But it is more profound than that. The writer has the tree of LIFE verses the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.It is quite profound to me. And I think it all points to Jesus Christ the Son of God.I have to discontinue here for now.God bless our exploration into His word.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Above I meant to write "I do [not] understand everything about this at this time."

Baily,My replies are likely to be very brief this evening. If you mean Christ as life in John, yes. Man was created to be mingled with God. Satan God's enemy likes to run ahead with a counterfeit plan. Man was united with Satan.In a strong sense as spontaneously as we sin God will gain a people who equally spontaneously manifest the holiness and righteousness of God.What we see today is an exact reverse of God's eternal purpose. We express the Devil. We were created to express God. Salvation therefore is a kind of reversal from going down one road and placing us back on the proper road to be saturated with the life of God. Yes. However, the human conscience is part of the human spirit. So when the spirit became comatose and deadened it was not totally killed. That is because the conscience in the human spirit still functions in the sinners. What has died is two matters. The ability to have fellowship with God and the intuition which teaches man concerning things deeper than the logic and reasoning in the soul.The intuition in the spirit is an ability for a person to know that he knows the he knows something is true - an intuitive grasp on reality which is deeper than the rational mind.For these two functions to be restored the human spirit must be regenerated- reborn through the new birth experience in Jesus Christ.And as you said. Christ coming into the comatose spirit to make it alive again is the treasure in the earthen vessel. I would agree. The person who is not born again senses that something is missing in life. They do not know what it is. The sense they have is the missing function of the human spirit. It is very very valuable. Once we find it we have to give our all to learn to live in that realm. The regenerated spirit must ascend again to be the highest component of man. I can see this. I know that we are in a sense a three dimensional being. But because of Adam's fall we are born with the immediate awareness of only two dimensions. Some sense that something is missing. Others deny that anything is missing and learn to live without their spirit.But the fortunate are born again in the spirit. And the wise not only stop their but learn to go on to excercise their spirit and live under the enfluence of their spirit. This takes practice, time, patience, and probably a lifetime to perfect.But going into the next age it is crucial ... crucial that by then we have learned to live according to our born again spirit, or at least know how to touch God in prayer and fellowship in our spirit.The best preparation for the age to come on this earth is to allow the born again spirit to ascend about the body and soul in its rightful preeminent place. Then we are under the headship of Christ and the soul, mind, body and other inward parts are submisive to the strong divine indwelt human spirit. In John light is a big subject. In the Bible in general light is a big subject.By one or two or several posts we could never exhaust its meaning.
And the more experience we have the more we can speak of light.But I think that this light which is the light of life has to do with consciousness. It has to do with illumination and seeing the real nature of things. It has to do with seeing as God sees - seeing through the eyes of God.You may listen to a person speak and you have no light from God. You hear one thing. Then you gain more light from God and you see and hear the person as God sees and hears. You see yourself and other people differently from before. You have light from God.Jesus had no darkness in Him whatsoever. He was and is full of light. His impact on human history derives from His being so much in the divine light of God.We have to realize that we are deeply deceived people. We need to be delivered from the Satanic darkness into the light of God. God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all.Light also has much to do with conscience. If we sin and have no feeling about the horribleness of it it is because we have little light. The life was the light of men. Yes. I think this is what is there. God is a realm. God is a sphere. Man was not created in the sphere. But to enter into that sphere and realm was placed before him, to enter of his free will.To see what a man of life looks like and how he behaves we must study the Person of Jesus Christ in the Gospels. He is the God-Man. He is not just a Good-Man. He is the God-Man, a Man of Divine Life mingled with the human life.This Person is too unique. The whole matter of WHY was there ANYTHING negative or adverse to man in the garden, is a basic question. When we read about the original paradise and come across a lying serpent and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we must ask "WHY are these dangersous things in the Paradise that God made for man."I think the answer lies in God's pronouncement that Adam was to guard the garden and that Adam was to have DOMINION over the earth. The negative matters left over from a more ancient age were matters over which Adam was assigned to have dominion and reign over.Instead of Adam excercising his dominion over these negative things he came under their control. They had dominion over him. He was meant to have dominion over them.My opinion is that eventually the lying serpent would have been executed on general principle. Satan acted preemtively to avert his own doom. From the creation of man Satan, evil angels, demonic spirits were doomed to be destroyed under the obedient Adam's GOd expressing image and divinely appointed dominion.This is no small verse:"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping things that creeps upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26)I honestly believe that by extrapolation we could read that as "Let US make man in Our image and place him over the entire universe as Our Deputy Authority to express the holiness and righteousness of the Creator and to put down whatever rebellious beings there are against God in the universe.Again, if you doubt you must go to and study carefully the Person of Jesus Christ. He is what God meant by human being.Normal therefore, I submit, is the Son of God. He is not the anigma. He represents normality. And against His lofty postion we can see how far man has fallen from the purpose of God.The Lord Jesus is the standard and our Savior. Of course ascending up to the level of Jesus are many godly men and women - Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Deborah, David, Solomon, ...etc. All these imperfect ones are precusors of the Son of God. They are imperfect steps leading up to the Perfect One, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the God-man.I will continue in another post, especially these challenge:

Not concerning the Trees per se, but perhaps the Principle of the matter I might understand.Before man was created the angels were created. And I believe that other creatures in the pre-Adamic world were created. None of them shared the life of God. Neither angel nor any other being was created to have the opportunity that was presented to man.The advent of God offering man to partake of Himself so that God the creature would mingle together was a totally new item in the universe. This was "revolutionary".At best before God did have some creatures. And one of them was extrememly wise and knowledgeable. That was the Day Star - (in Latin Lucifer). This highly positioned being rebelled against God to become the opposite of God. Whatever God was this rebellious being had to become the opposite. God is a God of life. This being became a god of DEATH.He was perfect in his was from the day he was created. So you must realize that no creature was as wise or as humble or as smart or a knowledgeable than the being that became Satan. It is his principle of independence and rebellion against God which is wrapped up in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in Genesis.We have to see that this knowledge was something of God. We see God saying "Behold the man has become as one of US, knowing good and evil..." So I must concede that this knowledge was something of God and something divine.But the principle of this knowledge in the hands of Satan is rebellion and revolt and independence from God. No being can be independent from God. God alone is self existing and totally not dependent upon anything or anyone. Only God is God. All other lives are dependent.Satan became independent and his revolt is a dynamic withdrawing into Death.I stress again. Man gained the knowledge of good and evil. Yet he lacked in this deal, the POWER to perform the good that he knows or the POWER to resist the evil that he knows. He is very proud of the knowledge. But he became enslaved to the Rebel and joined the opposition party against God.The tree of life, or at least the principle of God's life to be imparted into man was a new thing. It was in the heart of God from eternity past. But it was not manifested, I think, until after the rebellion of Satan.This is the eternal providence and forknowledge of God. This may be God using the rebellion of Satan as a back drop upon which He enacts His eternal purpose.The book of Ephesians enfluences me to think this way. It does not start from the viewpoint of man's need to be saved from his sins. It starts from the eternal viewpoint of God wanting sons in His divine family to express Him.I think from one standpoint the creation of man is a reaction to the failed Day Star's existence to become Satan. But from another deeper standpoint, the failure of the first being gave God a back drop upon which to cause His real eternal economy to he launched - the creation of a being within whom God can live and with whom God can unite.Again we need to study the Person of Jesus Christ in the New Testament to ascertain this revelation. That may be so but the Satanic principle of withdrawing from God with great degrees of knowledge is totally condemned. And Satan in the end goes to the eternal damnation. His rebels, angels, demons, and unrepentent sinners co-join him in his eternal punishment.So while I cannot argue that the knowledge of good and evil per se is condemned, it is totally obvious that the one who abused it and derailed God's plan becomes the eternally cursed being. He will be tormented for ever and ever. And the fallen angels who followed him, and the demonic spirits, and the unrepentent human beings will join him in this etenal damnation.So we need to believe into Jesus the Savior to be saved from so terrible a destiny. And it was not even the season for that tree to produce fruits. This must be significant also. This is still myterious to me. But God asked the man when Adam became aware that he was naked "Who told you that you were naked?Could it be that immediately after the knowledge of good and evil came the Satanic accusation against man's conscience started? Before God allowed them to be naked. God said it was OK.Then they ate and they felt condemned. God said "WHO told you ...? Seems that God did not tell them. How did they get to know that they should not be naked?This is just still very prodound to me. But perhaps a being, Satan, who had such superior knowledge and the inside story on so many things, began to accuse man. "See, look at yourself. You are naked and shameful."I speculate quite a bit here and you can take it with a grain of salt. But anyway, we have to grasp that what was of God was used by Satan and the sinner to rebel against God. This is the subtlety of the matter.So when you constantly speak highly of this knowledge of good and evil, I can see your point somewhat. But the good thing was used by Satan in a totally revolting way. It was actually a tree of DEATH. Concerning this not being a biological matter. I agree that life has to do with the TOTALITY of man. In that sense I think you are right. For Paul says that even the physical body will be swallowed up by the divine life.So the resurrection and the transfiguration DO indeed effect the bios of man and involved his physical component.I will skip down a little. I will have to agee because man is also physical. And this extensive salvation of man being mingled with the life of God also includes the glorification of the human body.Concerning my admition that Adam was placed among the trees: Yes. Even in the daily life of the Christian it is not always easy to discern by which principle you are living.Judas thought he was doing good by betraying Jesus. He as deceived.
Peter thought he was doing good by arguing that Jesus should not go to the cross. This got him rebuked as Satan."And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke HIm, saying, God be merciful to You, Lord! This [crucifixion] shall by no means happen to You!

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But He [Jesus] turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men." (Matt. 16:22,23)This was the knowledge of good and evil in the abusive hands of Satan. This was the temptation of Satan against the Son of God using a distored ethics to destract the Son of God from performing the Father's will.Would you not say that to perseve the life of the Son of God was a most noble and good thing to suggest? I would. That is because our minds are set on the things of men and not on the will of God.I hope you can see how subtlely this abuse of the knowledge of good and evil can become if we do not have the Spirit of God within us to lead us into His perfect will.I have to discontinue here.Agape, in the name of Jesus the Lord.

What would you say about First Kings 17:22,23 when Elijah raised the widow's son from the dead."And he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, I beg You, let this child's soul come into him again

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And Jehovah listened to the voice of Elijah; and the child's soul came into him again, and he lived."This seems to indicate that the child possessed an immaterial component - a soul. It had departed and at the request of the prophet God allowed it to come into the body again. Do you give heed at all to the New Testament?First Thessalonians portrays man as a spirit + soul + body.Tripartite Man: refs. include Watchman Nee and Witness Lee is a lenghtier discussion on the three parts of man.But we New Testament believers see the soul and spirit as closely knit together. But death causes a seperation of the parts of man. And while I am not sure of all things related to this, it seems that the soul can have a place to go of its own. It awaits the resurrection which is accomplished by Christ upon all people who have died eventually at history's end.Furthermore, Hades or the realm of Death has components for departed souls. Hadees is spoken of a locality or place in Old and New Testaments.That is a place for the departed soul. That is a place for the soul which by death has been separated from the physical body.Hadees is never full - Proverbs 26:7;30:15,16"Sheol [covered to men's eyes] is naked before Him [God]" (Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11)The patriarch Jacob believed that he would go down into a realm of departed souls and there meet his son Joseph whom he erroneously supposed had been killed by an animal:"I will go down into Sheol [or Hadees] to my son mourning." Sheol was described as situated below in the great interior of the earth - Gen.37:35; 42:38; 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6The prophet Amos described SHEOL, as the greatest depth of earth, to be reached by digging, if men could carry the process far enough -"Though they dig into Sheol, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down," Amos 9:2)This and other biblical passages reveal a locality and a place where the departed souls of the dead go.I will cut this post short here before going further.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

ICANT mentioned this: My intention in this reply is not to address the problem of the eternalness of a part of man, which is interesting topic but the human spirit in that it is very close to God.The spirit which God formed within man is not God Himelf and is not the Holy Spirit. But it is very close to what God is for the purpose that man and God could be united together.God formed the spirit within man - "The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him. (Zech 12:1)The heavens are for the existence of the earth. The earth is for the existence of man. And man with a spirit in him, is created with something close to God in order that man and God may commune, fellowship, unite, co-mingle, and blend together.God formed the spirit of man within him. I take "within him" to mean more than "within the physical body which was made of dust." Rather I take this "within him" to mean within man as a soul with emotion, will, mind, personality as well as body. He not only created man. He formed the spirit of man within the created man.What I try to demonstrate here is that the spirit of man is a component deeper in him than mind, will, and emotion, ie. the soul of man. Within man's personality, on a deeper level is the spirit of man created very much like God in order that man and God may correspond to one another on a much deeper level than any other created being, inlcuding angels.There is a spirit with man - "But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding." (Job 32:8)Man has a mind. And in addition to his mind he has the breath of the Almighty - the spirit in man which aids in his understanding. I do not believe here the spirit is the mind. I do not take this to mean the spirit is the brain. But the spirit in man assist men in inner enlightening to mind to give man understanding, especially of things regarding the spiritual realm and God."The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all the innermost parts of the inner being." (Proverbs 20:27)You see first man has an inner being existing that CAN be searched. Then the innermost part - the spirit of man within him, is the illumination, searching out the deep inner being of man. This is the lamp of Jehovah. This is an illumination and an enlightening enabled by God.My point in this post is establish a difference between the soul and personlity of man and the spirit of man within him. The spirit of man uniquely allows man to have communion and fellowship with God.In the New Testament regeneration the damaged and comatose human spirit must be born again:"Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:5,6)The capital S Spirit is God Himself. That Spirit is none other than the Person of the very God. The small s spirit is the spirit of man. That is the spirit that God formed within man. That is the spirit that is the breath of the Almighty put into man in his creation. That is the spirit of man which is the lamp of Jehovah created to illumine man's inner parts of his personality.The spirit of man became damaged and comatose in the fall of Adam. Christ the Savior can cause the spirit of man to be born of the Holy Spirit - effectively resurrected and infused with God Himself. And man must have it so in order to live in the kingdom of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am not sure what you mean by this. I can't agree or disagree at this point. I offer no apologies for dealing in the realm of "belief" as if "belief" in Christ is some second hand step child of a more certain path to reality.There is a divine and mystical realm in the universe. And I always say the eventually we all have to put our trust in someone. I don't see how you are going to make understanding the liturary significances of these symbols as not a matter of some kind of belief.You may believe that an alternative way of interpreting the tree of life, tree of the knowledge of good and evil, etc. is more legitimate. That is still a matter of belief.I have to discontinue here. Be back latter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Peg,I see you quote jaywill, but when did I write that ??Did someone else write this paragraph about Ezekiel ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Bertot,Good to see you active here again. Thanks. This however brief Discussion Board appropriate treatment of something chapters could and have been written. Thankyou for an encouraging compliment. To God be the glory. I think the notion should be questioned as you have. It is an important matter to discuss as to whether it is biblical or not. I think it is.I understand firstly that the being that became Satan was angelic. If man is simply a rehash of what Satan was as the anointed cherub that does not seem to make sense. Why would God make a new creature out of the dust of the ground to be a replica of the angelic being who seems to have been God's crowning creative achievement?The book of Hebrews suggests a difference places in God's economy for angels and man:"Are they [the angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?" (Heb. 1:14)The angels are servants for the sake of the newer creatures inheritance of a unique salvation.Christ as the leading Man, the last Adam and the Second Man, has inherited a better name than the angels:"[Christ] Having become as much better than the angels as to have inherited a more distinguished name than they." (Heb. 1:4)The representative Man, the Son of Man the Son of God, more particular to God than the angels. He along with man in general was made a little lower than the angels but end up inheriting a better name than they: Though the first man Adam failed, he was unique as a deputy authority created a little lower than the purely spiritual angels. This creature has a bodily frame of dust. Yet he ends up being serviced by the angels and under Christ's headship reigning for God over God's creation.I submit that there is something unique about man. He possess a potential which was never offered to the angels. Though he is creation partially of earth's dust he has the possibility to be the vessel to contain God. Man can mingle with God. Man can be indwelt with by God. This is something that the anointed cherub who became Satan never had.The angels do not have the life of God. The regenerated man who as received the Spirit of the Triune God, the Spirit of the resurrected Christ, has the life of God and becomes God, not in His Godhead but in His life and nature and expression. Christ is God and Man united.Though the angelic beings were created glorious, I do not believe that they were mingled with God's life intrinsically. And they did not enjoy either the redemptive work of Christ's blood or the indwelling divine life impartation of the born again experience. They are not regenerated.The future man in the New Jerusalem will not marry as the angels do not marry (Matt 22:30). In that regard the fully save man will be "like the angels in heaven". But God indwells this man in such a way as He never did ANY angel.This is the point of extreme enmity and hatred that Satan has against the new dusty creature man. Man, though dustly apparently looked to Satan as a much weaker being. Yet in the end this redeemed, regenerated, transformed, resurrected, conformed. glorified, and deified man becomes the kind of expansion of the life of God. Man extends the life of God, is the multiplication of the life of God. God's incommutable Godhead he doesn't duplicate. But God's communicable attributes are imparted and dispensed as a life element into man being.In a real sense man becomes God. God became a man so that man might become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead. Man is organically brought up into union with the Triune God:"That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us ... And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one; I in them and YOu in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (JOhn 17:21-23)The creature man therefore has this potentiality. By cooperating with God's full salvation man can be united with God "organically". The prayer of Christ is that the saved man would be "PERFECTED" into one even as the Son and the Father are one. It is a potentiality. It is a possiblility given that man take into himself the life of God, a life which Christ has made available to the saved through His redemptive death and life imparting resurrection.So I submit man was created with a potentiality that surpassed thast of any previous angelic being. That would include the highest and most dignified and wise being God created - the anointed cherub who rebelled to become Satan the Devil.This dusty creature can become mingled in life with God and PERFECTED into oneness with the great Divine "Us" of the Triune God -"That they all may be one; even as You Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us that the world may believe that You have sent Me." (John 17:21)I would submit this for a starter to defend the uniqueness of the created man from the angels.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.