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Author
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Topic: The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life (Lost /Reformed Thread)
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 7 of 203 (488243)
11-08-2008 11:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Bailey
11-08-2008 4:59 PM
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Re: Knowledge...
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes: So it is not whether the God wants you to partake of the Tree of Knowledge, Where was this tree of knowledge located? When was the first man told the Tree of Life existed and it's location?
Bailey writes: And, to the God's credit, Adam was not careful, nor prevented from making his own choices. What exactly was the choices this first man had? Thanks in advance. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Bailey, posted 11-08-2008 4:59 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by Bailey, posted 11-09-2008 5:27 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 12 of 203 (488403)
11-10-2008 5:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Bailey
11-09-2008 5:27 PM
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Re:Tree of Knowledge...
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes: ICANT writes: Bailey writes: So it is not whether the God wants you to partake of the Tree of Knowledge,
Where was this tree of knowledge located? In the midst of the garden ... Is it your position that this tree was all knowledge and if mankind had not eaten the fruit he would have remained without any knowledge whatsoever? This is what I am getting from your posts. How do you get that from this:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree OF the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. That verse says the fruit of the tree contained the knowledge of good and evil. Nothing is said about all knowledge.
Bailey writes: ICANT writes: Bailey writes: And, to the God's credit, Adam was not careful, nor prevented from making his own choices. What exactly was the choices this first man had? Same as the rest of the species ... Be certain of the God's Words, or be uncertain of the God's Words.
The only choice I see that this first man had was to live and keep the garden or to eat the fruit and die. I see no other option. I do not see where any other species was given a choice.
Bailey writes: Be good ICANT. I wish I could be good but I am told:
Mark 10:18 (KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
But that does not keep me from trying and one day I will be perfect when:
1Cor 15:54 (KJV) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Bailey, posted 11-09-2008 5:27 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2008 9:27 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 16 of 203 (488470)
11-11-2008 7:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by Bailey
11-11-2008 9:27 AM
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Re:Ability to be certain
Hi Bailey, Thank's for the clarification.
Bailey writes: That being said, as intelligent or ignorant as the Lovebirds were, they were lacking in one crucial area. Mankind did not have the ability to be certain of the God's Words when comparing them to someone else's ... I have this foolish idea that the first man knew exactly what the God had said in Genesis 2:17, and exactly what it meant.
Gene 2:17 (KJV) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Because after God made the creatures and the man named them, God took a rib from the man and formed a woman and brought her to the man. The man knew that she was a part of his flesh and he said:
Gene 2:23 (KJV) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Gene 2:24 (KJV) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. The woman was deceived into eating the fruit. Many think the man was present at this time because:
Gene 3:6 (KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Says "with her" in verse 6. Those two words are not translated from any Hebrew word or words. Now to my foolish idea. The woman was deceived by the Serpent. She then brought the fruit to the man and gave to him. He did not have to eat the fruit but he knew the woman was going to die. So instead of being alone with the animals he chose to eat the fruit and die with the woman. He did this because of what he said in Genesis 2:24 quoted above. He was willing to give up everything for his wife. So should we all be. When God asked the man about eating the fruit in Genesis 3:11 the woman had given him the fruit and he ate it. No excuse offered. In 3:13 the woman said the Serpent beguiled (deceived) me, and I did eat. Excuse offered. Their eyes were not opened until after the man had eaten the fruit. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2008 9:27 AM | | Bailey has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 18 of 203 (488493)
11-11-2008 11:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 17 by Bailey
11-11-2008 10:12 PM
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Re: Deception
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes: The possibility remains, she may not have told him at all tho. But her eyes was not opened until the man ate the fruit.
Bailey writes: Adam simply blames it on Eve, tho as far as we know, he tells the truth ... She gave it to him. Actually the man did the same thing everyone here at EvC does for all the worlds problems. He blamed it on God. He said the woman you gave me, she gave it to me and I ate it. But I don't see him using that as an excuse just an explanation. Now if she had deceived him by saying it was from somewhere else I am sure he would have tried to use that as an excuse. But the fact remains he had no excuse. God said if you eat you will die. He died and I believe it was the same day but that is another story. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 17 by Bailey, posted 11-11-2008 10:12 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Bailey, posted 11-12-2008 8:28 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 21 of 203 (488561)
11-12-2008 11:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Bailey
11-12-2008 8:28 PM
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Re: Excuses
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes: So you consider Eve's reply an excuse, yet not Adam's tapdancing? The woman was deceived therefore that is an excuse. The man willfully disobeyed God. There is no excuse only tapdancing.
Bailey writes: Are you counting Adam as dying the same "day" by the God's days, instead of mankind's days? Like the notion that he did not live 1000 years, so that means he died the same day? God does not have day's. God has no yesterday and no tomorrow He only has a great big "NOW". I believe everything in Genesis 1:1 as described in Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26 took place over a long day that ended in Genesis 1:5 with the evening and the morning being the first day. In this account there is no mention of years or age of the man or woman or their children. There was no dark periods to break up the light periods, so there was nothing to measure time by. That did not happen until God separated the light and darkness in Genesis 1:5. The man was not around in the evening so he must have died (just a guess Bible does not say) sometime prior to the evening of Genesis 1:5. I think this will explain my position on the man dying the same day. This is a thread I did on the Literal Genesis Account of Creation.
Bailey writes: I am not sure how keen you are regarding Jubilees. I am familiar with most all text's, but I use the accepted ones. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Bailey, posted 11-12-2008 8:28 PM | | Bailey has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 33 of 203 (489153)
11-24-2008 12:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 32 by Peg
11-23-2008 9:08 PM
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Re Imortality
Hi Peg, Since this is my first post to you welcome to EvC.
Peg writes: 'immortality' is an adaption of other religions... it is pointless applying that meaning, to the bible because it just doesnt fit The man and woman in Genesis 1:26, 27 was created in the image and likeness of God. God is an eternal being. Therefore that man and woman and their descendents are eternal beings. Something that is eternal can never go out of existence. All mankind will spend eternity somewhere. So what part of eternal does not fit in the Bible? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 32 by Peg, posted 11-23-2008 9:08 PM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 34 by Peg, posted 11-24-2008 2:03 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 36 of 203 (489167)
11-24-2008 12:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 34 by Peg
11-24-2008 2:03 AM
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Re Imortality
Hi Peg,
Peg writes: what does your bible say at Eccl 5:9 Eccl. 5:9 Moreover the profit of the earth is for all: the king himself is served by the field. I don't see where that verse has anything to do with eternal or imortality. Maybe you can enlighten me. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by Peg, posted 11-24-2008 2:03 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by Peg, posted 11-25-2008 3:42 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 42 of 203 (489282)
11-25-2008 9:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 38 by Peg
11-25-2008 3:42 AM
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Re Imortality
Hi Peg,
Peg writes: Im so sorry ... it was late LOL Ezekiel 18:4 Is that the reason you didn't comment on Message 33 also.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. I assume you are refering to: "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". The other part simply says everything belongs to God. If you read a few more verses as the Bible is it own best interperter.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Do pay close attention to who God is addressing this message in verse 30. It is the house of Israel. So according to those passages the soul that would turn from his wicked ways, make a new heart and a new spirit would live and not die. Sound like to me that the children of Israel that obeyed God's rules would live for eternity to me. Just as Jesus tell us in:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? I believe it. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by Peg, posted 11-25-2008 3:42 AM | | Peg has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by Peg, posted 11-26-2008 5:48 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 46 of 203 (489349)
11-26-2008 1:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by Peg
11-26-2008 5:48 AM
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Re Imortality
Hi Peg,
Peg writes: but if you consider that God is also a spirit, what you are saying implies that the man and woman should also be in spirit form ... the reality is that we are not in spiritual form, but in a physical form God is a Spirit with all knowledge made manefist to man in a physical body. We are made in that image. The body is defiled, (by the first man's disobedience). The spirit can be made perfect by faith in Jesus. The mind (knowledge) is in the process of being made perfect. The body will be made perfect in the resurrection.
Peg writes: the fact also remains.... humans die. The physical body that houses the mind and spirit does die. The mind and spirit will never die because it is made in the image of God. Jesus had a physical body that died but Jesus did not die. He told the thief today "shalt thou be with me in paradise". The physical body must die as the result of the first man's willful disobedience of God. That was the penalty for the privilege of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: That is the reason at the resurrection every spirit and mind will receive and eternal body.
1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. We don't know what that body will be like.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Jesus had a body when He appeared the many times to His disciples before His ascension. So according to John at the resurrection we will have a body like the one Jesus has.
Peg writes: That scripture in Ez clearly says that the 'soul dies' Are you saying Ezekiel does not say:
Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. He shall surely live, "HE SHALL NOT DIE"? Provided he turneth from his wickedness. You state:
Peg, writes: we do not live forever therefore we are not immortal. How do you reconcile that statement with this one?
Peg writes: however, i do also believe Jesus words that man can live forever Either man is immortal and will live forever or he is a biological organism that will cease to exist. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by Peg, posted 11-26-2008 5:48 AM | | Peg has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 47 of 203 (489360)
11-26-2008 2:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by Bailey
11-26-2008 12:23 PM
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Re: Totality expressed within Nepesh
Hi Bailey, Let me butt in with a question.
Bailey writes: Spirit and flesh are of the nepesh, I don't understand this statement. Could you clarify? As I understand it there are two different words for spirit and soul. Soul nephesh = self, life, creature, person or living being. Spirit ruwach Spirit of God as the Holy Spirit co-equal with God. Spirit is something man has no concept of. Thus we try to define it in our own terms that we understand which is impossible. The spirit in man is the part Jesus told Nicodemus that must be born of the Spirit of God. You can call it whatever you want. Since the writer of Genesis had no knowledge of how we would define the words he used to express what God led him to write: Why did he use nephesh when writing about the nshamah breath, of life chay instead of using spirit ruwach if he ment the spirit of man? My understanding is that man is a being of three parts made in the image of God. Man has a physical body to house the mind and the spirit. Just as Jesus had a physical body to house His mind and Spirit. Jesus physical body died. Just as our physical body will die. Jesus Mind and Spirit never died. Just as ours will never die. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one". John 10:30 Jesus said, "I will send Him to you". (Comforter, Holy Spirit) John 16:7 Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by Bailey, posted 11-26-2008 12:23 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 49 by Bailey, posted 11-26-2008 4:11 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 50 of 203 (489378)
11-26-2008 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by Bailey
11-26-2008 4:11 PM
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Re: Totality expressed within Nepesh
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes: An accurate definition contains both the spiritual and biological properties associated to the species. So who is the author of, or where can I find this accurate definition of ? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by Bailey, posted 11-26-2008 4:11 PM | | Bailey has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by Bailey, posted 11-26-2008 6:52 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: The spirit of man within him
Hi Bertot,
Bertot writes: As you did not indicate in your post fully why do you think God created man in the first place? I would like to propose this as an answer to the question.
Acts 17:23 (KJV) For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Pay close attention to verse 27. It says they (humans) should seek the Lord, and find Him. I find no other reason for humans to exist. Humans have a choice.
Bertot writes: It is my belief that any creature created with free will is subject to the mercy of God. I agree.
Bertot writes: as Ihave heard others say that the angels have no redemption if they sin. This is of course assumed because Satan fell. The angels were not created with the possibility of disobeying God. We assume so because Satan is said to have fallen. But he like Judas was a devil from the beginning. But the angels did not have free will. Satan did exactly what he was supposed to do as did his angels that followed him. Without Satan there would be no choice for man to make as there would be no evil?
Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Without Satan there is no evil. God created Satan evil, not good with a choice. As that would have been with potential for evil. Angels do as they are programed to do just as the universe and everything else but mankind does as it is programed.
Bertot writes: I believe we will still make mistakes there and that the blood of Christ will follow us there as well. I totally disagree. Where do you get such an idea? Quit listening to the God of this World. A person who has been born again has a perfect spirit now. He will receive a perfect body when Jesus returns. He will receive a perfect mind when God wipes all tears away. Jesus never sinned and John said we will be like Him.
1John 3:2 (KJV) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. I will be perfect just as the first man was when he was placed in the Garden. Restored completely to the point I can walk down the streets of gold to the throne of God and thank Him personally for loving me, a wretched sinner, lost and undone, making it possible for me to be made complete through His death on the cross at Calvary. Mankind is the only creature that was created that was given the ability to choose what he does or does not do. Choose wisely. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 69 of 203 (489708)
11-29-2008 1:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 66 by jaywill
11-29-2008 10:44 AM
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Re: The spirit of man within him
Hi jay,
jaywill writes: G.H. Pember argues that the angels who followed Satan had their time to repent of their choice and did not. I think I agree at this time which would suggest something at least about thier ability to choose. Did Pember argue from his on beliefs or did he use scripture to support his idea that the angels had their time to repent?
jaywill writes: I always consider New Jerusalem in the last two chapters of the Bible to be the heart's desire of God. This is what it is all for. This is why there is a universe and there is man. And for this New Jerusalem all things have happened. God had his desire in Genesis chapter 2. He had a perfect universe. Including a perfect earth. With a perfect paradise in it. With a perfect man and woman in it. With only one rule to obey. Then man made his choice. Creation was mared. Everything else is in God's premissive will. Which I am glad for or I would not be here typing this message. God Bless,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 66 by jaywill, posted 11-29-2008 10:44 AM | | jaywill has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 71 of 203 (489713)
11-29-2008 1:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 56 by Peg
11-27-2008 5:33 PM
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Re: The Mortal Brute Animal Species
Hi Peg,
Peg writes: im going to attempt this one last time, we are kind of going around in circles now Then why didn't you answer the question?
Peg writes: we do not live forever therefore we are not immortal. ICANT writes: How do you reconcile that statement with this one? Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. You say man is not immortal. Ezekiel says "he shall surely live, he shall not die." You are saying the opposite of Exekiel. How do you reconcile your belief? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 56 by Peg, posted 11-27-2008 5:33 PM | | Peg has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: The spirit of man within him
Hi Bertot,
Bertot writes: While it is not my interest get in a heated debate with another brother in Christ, I would seee that humans having a choice as secondary to why God created in the first place. I suppose though I may not be seeing your total point. My point is that everything God created served Him and did what He wanted and created them to do. But God desired more. He wanted to be loved, worshiped, and served just because He is God. He gave man the ability to do exactly that. Nothing else has that choice. If you have scripture that states otherwise I would be intersted in reading it.
Bertot writes: The possibilty of sin is analytical to the proposition of free will. Without Satan there is no choice. In the Garden man was told not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Along comes Satan and gives man a choice. What would have happened if Satan had not tempted the woman? There would have been no choice to exercise free will over. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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