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Author | Topic: What does Logos mean? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
Saddly i think its also related to the translater but more so having to do with logos having gnostic meanings - as john is very gnostic, the church wanting to have nothing to do with gnostism would try to erase all links to it
some people would argue agenst this but well, they have been taught that gnostism is bad or something, i guess
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
And they certainly did know better. That's why the Septuagint reads as it does, and the New Testament as well, because they were Jews who did know their own language as well as the Greek equivalents.
with the way greek is limited they did the best they could, though the words have shades to the words that greek doesn't express
t was only after Christ came that the Jews decided those meanings were wrong -- anything to avoid giving Jesus His rightful place as Messiah. Their own scribes had known better before that.
yes because a guy who was born of a virgin and was the son of god is the messiah, faith do you even know what the jewish messiah was expected to be at all? saying this unsupported nonsense shows you have no clue, if you did you wouldn't claim they changed it.
Nonsense. Almah for instance is translated virgin three times in the Septuagint, IIRC, at least two, only one of those in a "key passage" from the point of view of the Jews who refuse to accept Jesus as Messiah; and the other two or three times it is translated young woman or the equivalent.
do you have any evidence people did such a thing faith? or are you just making unsupported claims nowif you have a clue what the messiah was for the jews you wouldn't keep saying this
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
It is well known that the Jews expected a king and a political deliverer from oppression and that is the idea that prevailed. Even Jesus' disciples had that expectation. The New Testament shows that. Why you would expect me not to know it is the mystery. It's well known
because you say thier is some alteration in peoples belief, without any evidence
esus had to revive the knowledge of the full meaning of the Messiah because most of them had lost it. He taught -- FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT -- that the Messiah had to die. He also taught His identity as God Himself -- FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT. It's all there, only a carnal view of the Messiah had taken over and the true meaning was lost to most of the Jews (not all), and had to be revived in the followers of Jesus
Faith, this is all christian belief not jewish belief, do you really think it holds more impact pointing out they used the OT to justify thier beliefs? all of the passages used to show evidince of messiahhood are wrong according to jewish belief
The Septuagint shows that the Jews 200 years before Christ knew that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, and that's why they translated Almah as virgin. This was conveniently forgotten when it was claimed for Jesus Christ.
any evidence of this claim?
Jesus came as Suffering Servant in His first advent, and will come again as Conquering King at the very end, thus fulfilling ALL the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament.
not according to the OT if you are a jew
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
AND THIS SUPPOSED "UNSUPPORTED NONSENSE" IS WHAT IS TAUGHT IN THE TRUE CHURCHES AND HAS BEEN FOR 2000 YEARS. THIS IS NOT MY OWN PERSONAL NOTION. GOOD GRIEF. YOU ARE ARGUING WITH ALL OF CHRISTIAN HISTORY. ALL OF YOU ARE.
No we are arguing with you, and you need to chill out, and no its not all taught for 2000 years. dogma is not history
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
Now that i did a further bit of research i found that yes it was used by gnostic sects and it is thought to be written by a gnostic in egypt at one point
Gospel of John - Wikipedia - general source but answers questionsinteresting how much it differs from the others in quite a few ways from Gospel of John at the bottom
Helms argues: "So the gospel attributed, late in the second century, to John at Ephesus was viewed as an anti-gnostic, anti-Cerinthean work. But, very strangely, Epiphanius, in his book against the heretics, argues against those who actually believed that it was Cerinthus himself who wrote the Gospel of John! (Adv. Haer. 51.3.6). How could it be that the Fourth Gospel was at one time in its history regarded as the product of an Egyptian-trained gnostic, and at another time in its history regarded as composed for the very purpose of attacking this same gnostic? I think the answer is plausible that in an early, now-lost version, the Fourth Gospel could well have been read in a Cerinthean, gnostic fashion, but that at Ephesus a revision of it was produced (we now call it the Gospel of John) that put this gospel back into the Christian mainstream." so main stream may view it as anti-gnostic but thats purely because later they viewed them as heretics so any links would be considered wrong
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
Just to reply i wasn't talking about the word useage but the claim that they suddenly decided "Hey we don't trust/like/believe in jesus so we are going to alter our beliefs so he isn't messiah, even though the beliefs never changed
if you want to make sweeping claims that there was a compiricy to change what the jews believed, solely becuase of jesus then you have to find anything with evidence
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
I wasn't even talking about almah, i think she eather didn't understand me or decided to bring it up, i was contesting that the jewish people altered thier writings solely to deny jesus messiahship, i was asking for evidence that anyone would do this
the writings that talk about messiahship deny jesus, without altering it {abe:i will further try not to derail so much but faith needs to stop posting unsupported stuff } This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 04-23-2006 04:43 PM
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4141 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
At the time i was in a hurry when i posted the links, but i think i'm going to dig deeper and see whats what, you maybe right in that some of the things on the site may be a bit questionable
Thats the problem with tradition in the churchs, sometimes it bears little resemblence to the real history of the church attributing something to someone, who of themselves really couldn't write or read very well brings in to question as to whether they wrote what they are claimed to have written (that goes for most anything really)
It seemed odd to me also that Papias was quoted by very late sources (5th and 9th centuries) as saying John was martyred, when Irenaeus and Eusebius quote Papias extensively in the 2nd and 4th centuries, but quote him as living long and appointing Ignatius and Polycarp in Antioch and Smyrna. How did these 5th and 9th century guys get manuscripts of Papias that Irenaeus and Eusebius didn't have? like the hacked up texts of titus and josphus i think if the information was found later and not earlier it was added to reinforce an idea
If the person who wrote the letters of John was the same as the one who wrote the whole Gospel of John (as opposed to having simply edited it--though if he edited it, he wrote a lot in, because there are such glaring similarities), then he's clearly anti-gnostic. I'm having real trouble picturing the reason for editing a gnostic work, because almost no other gnostic works gained any hearing at all in the churches. just remember not everyone believed gnostism was herecy, maybe even in the church maybe they thought it would destroy any conversions to gnostism if they edited it, who could say the motive This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 04-24-2006 03:11 AM
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