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Author Topic:   1 piece of evidence to disprove evolution..
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6506 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 57 of 85 (51013)
08-19-2003 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Zealot
08-19-2003 9:28 AM


Re: Hey
quote:
Also a lion today (after 100 000 years of evolution) would surely by default have the 'perfect' claw (for a lion) ? Any Lion that develops a stronger claw would mean his genes would most likely be passed on to the next generation (well most likely that is) ?
You point out the error in your own argument with your second sentence. If it has a "perfect" claw..then how could a stronger claw develop? There is no such thing as perfection. Even when a population is highly adaptive, mutation still occurs and allele frequencies change and the new variants can be acted on by selection. In any event, a lion with say less robust claws but a sperm count 1000 times higher than other lions could end up producing way more young and driving a relatively poor claw trait to high frequency in the population...evolution is not a goal directed process in terms of forming body plans....given the gross inefficiencies at the molecular and morphological level in most organisms this should be pretty clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Zealot, posted 08-19-2003 9:28 AM Zealot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Zealot, posted 08-19-2003 10:42 AM Mammuthus has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6506 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 61 of 85 (51057)
08-19-2003 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Zealot
08-19-2003 10:42 AM


Re: Hey
Hi Zealot
quote:
Ok, perhaps I can put this in a better way. There realy shouldn't exists a lion today with an 'inferior' claw correct ? Considering all other things equal, lions with superior claws (genetically) should not be found with lions with 'inferior' claws. Thus, as far as the lion is concerned its claw should be perfect. Now however, a new mutation occurs which provides one of the lions with poinsonous claws. All things else being equal, or more or less equal, IE: same sperm count as they all are pretty much from the same genetic line, this lion with its mutation should reign supreme ?
However, relatively unfit members of a group exist in every generation in every population. In your lion example, there is a dominant male in each pride that achieves its rank through aggression. Sometimes, brothers can take over a pride i.e. force of numbers from a single male. This gives them almost exclusive access to the prides females and since a takeover usually entails the killing of all the previous dominant males cubs (to get the females back into estrus) it guarantees them the highest fitness as they are the sole males reproducing. All other males, whether their claws are sharper etc. are less fit and will not pass their traits on. If stronger claws require more food then it could be a disadvantage when attempting to dominate the other males and could be maladaptive. Similarly, poisoneous claws could entail restrictive nutritional requirements that are a disadvantage. But regardless, like in all animals, in every generation of lions there will be faster, slower, smarter, dumber and all shades in between i.e. they do not reach some ultimate goal of a super lion and then just stay there.
quote:
I realise an organism might not have a 'perfect' organ ect, as it would still be evolving, and there is no 'goal' for the ultimate creature, however surely by default that would be achieved ? Taking all other things into account and assuming that something which has evolved for billions of years should be fertile and no other similar species near it will be 1 000 times more fertile. Yes I see your argument that a more fertile organism would produce more offspring etc, however those would be less suited to achieve reproductive age and also reproducing, especially in the case when they compete for reproduction rights as in male lions.
Not really. Over time some traits can become less adaptive. It depends on environment and selection..and chance. You seem to think that if an organism has a trait that it will march forward and become more and more adaptive but this is not the case. For example, flight does not necessarily improve in all birds i.e. there are many species of flightless birds i.e. they have lost this ability though they still have rudimentary wings...or rather than flight the wing adapts to an aquatic environment i.e. penguins. Humans have lost lots of olfactory receptor i.e. our sense of smell is getting worse relative to other primates...not better and so on and so on.
quote:
Something as drastic as poisonous fangs vs non-poisonous fangs would surely also easily overcome the offspring of another more fertile organism ?
Not necessarily. If more offpring of the more fertile organism survive and reproduce themselves, over time the "poison" trait will either become extremely rare or disappear completely from the population. What we as humans might think are great traits to have are not necessarily any good in the real world...that is why so many genetically modified crops that are supposed to be pest resistant turn out to be dramatic flops.
cheers,
M

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Zealot, posted 08-19-2003 10:42 AM Zealot has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6506 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 63 of 85 (51084)
08-19-2003 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Zealot
08-19-2003 11:15 AM


Re: Hey
quote:
Surely there is always selective pressure ? Why wouldn't there be ?
Selection does not always have to be in action..you can also have evolution by genetic drift...to give you an example, take humans..we are effectively not under natural selection anymore as a species (populations or smaller groups may be though the effects are largely insignificant). Through medicine and other direct intervention, individuals who would not normally be able to reproduce (think all the fertility treatment clinics out there) can and do reproduce. You would basically have to blow away everyone in the wold outside of the !Kung to have much of an effect on human genetic diversity and gene flow among groups is world wide...however, it does not mean that allele frequencies won't change over time...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Zealot, posted 08-19-2003 11:15 AM Zealot has not replied

  
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