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Author Topic:   1 piece of evidence to disprove evolution..
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 85 (50693)
08-16-2003 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Zealot
08-15-2003 9:43 PM


Same goes for the eye. A tremendously complex organ that I honestly cant see how it could have evolved by random mutation. Yes I'm sure 100% that there will be a theory to it , but how plausable ? I mean I can even probably tell you that its some kind of light receptor cell that enabled an organism (sorry I forget the correct word) to detect light. Pff and I dont even know the first thing about evolution!
Well, you obviously don't, because if you did, you'd know that there's a perfectly logical path for the evolution of the eye. Maybe you'd like to guess, or search google? Or we could just try and explain it to you.
It didn't evolve by random mutation, of course. It evolved by random mutation + natural selection. (It's that selection process that weeds out the failures so all you're left with is the successes.)
If there seems as if there can be no evolutionary 'leap' from 1 species to the next, what would it imply to evolutionists ?
But the lack of fossil evidence for avian transition isn't evidence that it never happened. It simply means we don't know which of our ample theories on the evolution of birds is the most accurate. Just because we don't know which theory is right doesn't mean that they're all wrong.
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 08-15-2003]

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 85 (50802)
08-18-2003 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Zealot
08-17-2003 9:43 PM


Re: Hey
Again I point to my stupid lego example. A flat and a house will be completely different objects in no way dependant on one another however they will share 97% of the same common components.
Where your analogy fails is that you didn't make the legos. (I forget who invented legos, but I assume it wasn't you.)
See, your mother "made" you, in a sense - but she didn't design the blueprint. She just followed the instructions, if you will. Likewise if you build #121212 Average Lego House you didn't really make it, the design process did.
So the fact that your lego house and your lego rocket ship are composed of the same components is significant, because you didn't really make them. They're both decendants of the same prior lego designs.
All life is made of protiens. As far as we know it didn't have to be this way. specifically all life is apparently composed of (largely) left-handed protiens, but random chemical reactions tend to generate protiens in equal measures of right- and left-handed. That life on earth is composed largely of the same type of protien is great evidence for common descent.
PS.. anyone have any idea why the moon revolves around the earth ?
Because the earth is bigger. Basic Newtonian mechanics. Actually, to be most accurate, the moon and Earth both orbit around a point in between them. It's just that the earth is so much more massive than the moon that the point they orbit is located within the surface of the earth (but not at the center).
If the earth and moon were of the same mass, they'd orbit around a point halfway between them.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 85 (50837)
08-18-2003 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Zealot
08-18-2003 9:45 AM


Re: Hey
Yes I know, they dont all NEED to be poisonous, however surely poisonous spiders would have been better suited to survival ? I mean thats what the 'survival of the fittest' is all about surely ?
No, because evolution doesn't create the optimum organism. The results of evolution are just good enough. (This is why you have a body that isn't quite suited to bipedal walking.)
So, survival of the fittest is about which organism wins when there's competition for resources like food and mates. But not all spiders are in competition with each other - they inhabit different areas or eat different things - so competition hasn't driven a need for venom in all spiders.
We look at black men in africa, believed to be 'survival fo the fittest' that people with darker pigment will be more suited to survive in warm sunny climates, thus eventually the only people that remain are dark skinned.
No, there's light-skinned Africans. And by and large the peoples of the Middle East are light-skinned - as light-skinned as a white guy would be if he lived in that area. So the data bears out exactly what you said we should expect.
Surely this argument would pass for any new species ? If its mutation is beneficial, not only will it be better suited than what its mutated from, but will eventually replace the other species ?
Again, it depends on how benefical the mutation is, and how competitive the environment is. If the species aren't in great competition the individuals without the mutation may do very well for themselves.
Having looked up on the net, I see that there are infact ants with functional eyes, however again I dont see why these ants haven't replaced those that dont have functional eyes.
Because evolution doesn't optimize. If near-blind ants are good enough to reproduce (and looking at my kitchen, this is clearly the case) then they survive.
And it's not like they lack senses. Their sense of smell is quite acute, as it's their primary means of communication. And adjusted for scale they may very well see as far as you.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 47 of 85 (50858)
08-18-2003 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Zealot
08-18-2003 12:29 PM


Re: Hey
For all purpose the T-Rex could have been this super species
Why? What's so special about a carrion eater?

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 49 of 85 (50862)
08-18-2003 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Zealot
08-18-2003 12:43 PM


Well, in my naivity I assumed it had no natural predators
Well, that may very well be, but predation isn't the only limit on population growth. After all if the only time you get to eat is when you find something (mostly) freshly dead - and you have only moderate ability to hasten that process yourself - then the size of your population becomes very dependant on food.
Luckily (for T. Rex at the time) dead animals are a renewable resource.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by DC85, posted 08-18-2003 7:16 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 51 of 85 (50922)
08-18-2003 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by DC85
08-18-2003 7:16 PM


That may very well be... I'm of the (largely uninformed) opinion that T. Rex was mostly a scavenger with a limited ability to catch the occasional sick, weak sauropod. I think she was just too big to be a good hunter. But what do I know?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by mark24, posted 08-18-2003 7:56 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 54 of 85 (50967)
08-19-2003 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by mark24
08-18-2003 7:56 PM


This is rapidly devolving into a debate along the lines of "Star Destroyer vs. Starship Enterprise, who wins?" Nonetheless...
But then we have to ask ourselves how fast a Triceratops (etc) could run? I suspect slower than a T.Rex. The late Cretaceous arms race wasn't an escalation of speed, we can be relatively confident of that at least.
Sure. But if the T. Rex is taller than most of its prey, it's attacking the backs of it's potential meals. With as dense ribs as those dinosaurs typically had, nothing the T Rex has in it's arsenal is going to make much of a dent.
It's that disembowling claw of the dromaeosaurs, in my uninformed opinion, that really marks them as predators. T Rex just doesn't have the hardware to bring down Triceratops, it seems to me.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 64 of 85 (51100)
08-19-2003 12:24 PM


Just as an example of how the "superior design" doesn't always take over, consider the example of the zebra mussel, currently taking over most of the lakes in this part of the country. The zebra mussel is a small freshwater mussel with a striped shell, usually about an inch long.
It has absolutely no advantages over indiginous mussels, none whatsoever - except for a lack of natural predators and a highly prodigious birthrate. That's all it takes, basically.
And, like we said, evolution doesn't optimize. Sometimes there's little benefit to be had with a slightly better claw, or knees that don't give out when you're 60, in terms of reproductive success.

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-19-2003 1:18 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 70 by Zealot, posted 08-19-2003 10:49 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 66 of 85 (51128)
08-19-2003 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dan Carroll
08-19-2003 1:18 PM


There'd really be no evolutionary benefit at all to a trait that makes life easier once you're past reproductive age, would there?
Only if it allows you to protect your children or grandchildren, or something. That's all I could think of, and at some point, your continued existence starts to divert resources that your progeny could be using, so there's a diminishing returns aspect.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 69 of 85 (51261)
08-19-2003 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Zealot
08-19-2003 10:11 PM


Re: Hey
Yet the same can be said for the preying mantis...
Uh, read a book. In mantises that's the female eating the male, after the mating. She's already got what she needs from him. She'll have his kids. His job is done, so he presents a food gift - himself.
Asgara's example was of a lion killing the female before she'd had a chance to bear his children, or even recieve his sperm.
Surely this difference must be apparent to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Zealot, posted 08-19-2003 10:11 PM Zealot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Zealot, posted 08-19-2003 10:57 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 72 of 85 (51289)
08-19-2003 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Zealot
08-19-2003 10:49 PM


I dont see any mutation here other than a different species being more suited for its environment.
Yeah, exactly. That was the point - that a species doesn't always need a brilliant new mutation to take over. And that a great new mutation doesn't equate with species domination.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 73 of 85 (51293)
08-19-2003 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Zealot
08-19-2003 10:57 PM


And that is beneficial to his future mating ? Surely a praying mantis that didn't face danger at point of mating would be more suited to spread his genes in future ?
Why does he need to mate any more? Thanks to his selfless actions he's going to be the postumously proud father of half a million or so new baby mantises, who might not have been born at all if he hadn't fed the mother. Sounds like a good deal to me. (Especially since his genitals exploded during the mating to gunk up her cloaca and prevent the deposition of the sperm of his competitors.)
The lion and poison example was an analogy, not all animals bite their sexual partners during mating. If we want to be more specific, the example could be shifted back to spiders. Why do some spiders have poisonous fangs and others not ?
Because the spiders who lack them live in environments where they either aren't necessary, or would be a liability. Venom isn't universally useful. What's not to get about this?

This message is a reply to:
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