Harun Yahya's Webpage

Ah! He assumes that the Quran is true in order to prove that the Quran is true. If he wants to criticise a major scientific theory without making scientists laugh at him, he will need to be more intelligent than that.Birds don't, of course, evolve from elephants, but there's plenty of evidence that they did evolve from other animals. I think that you need to learn the difference between scientific theories and ideologies.I've read some of the material on your link, and it's clear that Harun Yahya has no understanding of biology and the theory he is criticising, nor of the evidence for it.Claiming that there are no intermediate fossils is a straightforward lie, and what does it say about the "truth" of someone's religion if he needs to lie in order to promote it?People on this site may find it interesting that he's an "old earther", and also (and I love this) he describes Intelligent Design as a movement inspired by Satan.Perhaps some of you Satanic I.D. advocates would like to comment on this.Otherwise, the arguments are standard creationist stuff, like the Christians, minus the young earth element, and with a different set of scriptures to quote from. Biblical literalists will perhaps like to debate the claim that the bible has been corrupted.Welcome to EvC, Aldebaranster. It is interesting to hear an Islamic point of view.I'll give you a bit of free advice. The best way to learn about science is by studying the work of scientists, not by studying the religious beliefs of interior designers.Interior designers are obviously good at teaching you how to wear flashy clothes, though. Scroll down and find out how to model clothes Edited by bluegenes, : extra word deleted

I searched around on him a bit yesterday, and it must have been this from wiki:

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Oktar asserts that Buddhism as being a false religion built upon idolatry and falsehood.[22] He calls Buddhist rituals "meaningless" and "empty". He has also charged that intelligent design is a tool of Satan.

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Adnan Oktar - WikipediaWhich refers to this from Harun:http://www.harunyahya.com/...ses/news/intelligent_design.php

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"Intelligent Design" Is Another of Satan's Distractions

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In rejecting one false claim such as evolution, one must be very careful not to fall prey to another of Satan's snares. One of Satan's main objectives is to prevent the recognition of Allah by any means possible, and to cause people to ignore His remembrance.

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There are those whom Satan has not been able to deceive with the concept of evolution. But if he can divert them in another direction, such as that of "intelligent design" he will again have achieved his end, in turning people away from remembering Allah.

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How Satan manages to appear in the name of truth and causes people to deviate by obstructing truth is revealed in the Qur'an:

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He [Satan] said: "By Your misguidance of me, I will lie in ambush for them on your straight path. Then I will come at them, from in front of them and behind them, from their right and from their left. You will not find most of them thankful." (Qur'an, 7:16-17)

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It should be known that overturning the theory of evolution and revealing the "chance" mindset as invalid both demonstrate the existence of Allah, by Whom everything was created, and not of "intelligent design."

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To say, "If there is no evolution, then there is intelligent design" is nothing less than adopting yet another false idol to replace the one of evolution.

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I've always found it interesting in Islamic scriptures that Satan tries to stop people believing in Allah, because Allah is also credited with drawing a veil over the eyes of unbelievers. Either they're one and the same, or they're working very well together.It's their fault, logically, that we infidels don't believe, yet Allah then punishes us (rather than himself and Satan) with eternal burning.Elsewhere, Allah is described as being "just". You're welcome.{ABE}Incidentally, his specialist subject at art school was interior design, hence my comments on his obvious interest in his own exterior design.Edited by bluegenes, : brief addition

While it's true that no scientific knowledge disproves the idea that a God of some kind created the universe, as a Muslim, your God is not only the creator of the universe, but also the author of the Qur'an. There, you might have some problems with science.For example, from "The Cattle":

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[6.97] And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have made plain the communications for a people who know.

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You're a main of faith, obviously, and it must take a great deal of faith to believe that such words can be attributed to an all seeing all knowing God. Easy to believe that they're the words of a seventh century human being who did not know that there were trillions of stars that he could not see, though.Incidentally, isn't it true that you can no longer easily exercise your freedom to choose another religion or philosophy as you have in the past, as the punishment for apostasy is death? As a Muslim, you must presumably agree with this punishment. Would you do your duty, and carry out the sentence on an apostate from Islam, I wonder?Or are you in favour of moderating the punishment to imprisonment, as they do in Malaysia at the moment?Or are you perhaps one of the liberal Muslims who thinks that the punishment of apostates contradicts a verse in the Qur'an that says that there should be no coercion in religion?If so, isn't the indoctrination of children coercion?Would you support the idea of freedom of speech in predominantly Islamic countries, or do you think that Islam should be protected from criticism?I'm asking questions because I think that followers of all religions that claim to be "true" religions should explain and defend their views, as such claims automatically lead to forms of bigotry.{ABE}To relate this to the topic, Harun has an irritating tendency of quoting verses from the Qur'an as evidence against science. This conflicts with a scientific approach, which would require evidence that the Qur'an is anything other than the words of a human being who knew very little of the universe. If religious factions are going to criticise scientific theories, and make shrill demands for evidence to back those theories, the same level of evidence should be presented for the veracity of the religion concerned, and it never is.It's easy for someone to claim to be speaking the word of God, so the claim has no authority in itself.Edited by bluegenes, : No reason given.Edited by bluegenes, : spelling

Satan inspired rubbish, of course, to Harun.People say that Empires used to operate "divide and rule" policies, but in fact, they generally exploited divisions that were already there.From the science education point of view, the more divisions in creationism, the better. Exploit and highlight those divisions, and you'll rule.The divisions are inevitable. Because religious beliefs aren't evidence based, anyone can make up anything they want to. That's why, if you look at the history of the Abrahamic religions, it's like a tree, with Judaism as the trunk, Christianity forking off, and then Islam forking off Christianity, then all three religions dividing out into the numerous branches and twigs of chronic disagreement.In science, on the other hand, divisions always have to reunite in the direction of the evidence as it comes in, which is your strength, and why you science boys always win in the long run.I'd like to see Christian creationists debating Muslim creationists on EvC. Two different magic books involved, both claiming to be the word of God.

Not proof, I agree. But it's a common and highly subjective human view that the immense universe was made for our convenience, and I was saying that attributing words like those to an all seeing all knowing creator of the universe requires great faith.In the cases of religious claims, like someone claiming to speak the word of God, the burden of proof is not on those of us with a healthy cynicism towards such claims. I'm sure there are plenty of epileptics alive today who make similar claims, and claims made for someone who lived 1400 years ago are no more likely to be true. I agree that it's drifting a bit from the topic, but it comes from Harun's irritating habit of presenting the contents of the qur'an as evidence for things like man's separation from other animals. It's evidence of one man's opinion on that subject, and Mohamed didn't know any modern biology.I realise that you disagree with Harun on this, and that the two of you, therefore, believe in different creator Gods who created in different ways. Teaching children facts about the world's religions and their tenets is certainly part of education. Teaching children that any one of those religions is the true religion is indoctrination, and should certainly be described as indoctrination. I agree. I agree that it shows a weak faith, but the obvious presence of all this weak faith and the obvious necessity of all religions to indoctrinate kids doesn't seem to fit your conclusions that open criticism will fail.Interestingly, as your wife seems to support Harun, and you seem to be an Islamic evolutionist, we seem to have picked up two interesting angles on the EvC topic simultaneously from the same family! I hope it doesn't cause domestic strife.Welcome to EvC.