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Author Topic:   Viagra & Evolution
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2726 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 7 of 55 (490249)
12-03-2008 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:33 AM


Evolution by Personal Selection
Hi, Peg.
As you’ve probably heard, there are two fundamental processes involved in the gestalt effect of evolution: (1) mutation and (2) natural selection. Mutation is a fundamentally undirected process that produces hordes of new information1 without any regard to its usefulness. Natural selection is a "directed" process that filters all the new information by its usefulness to survival and reproduction, and actively prevents any deleterious information from propagating itself, often by simply killing it before it can propagate. In this, natural selection is not an actual force of nature, like gravity, but is simply the combined effect of myriads of environmental influences that can prevent propagation from occurring. It’s more convenient for us to refer to it by its gestalt, rather than by all the thousands of things that lead to it.
Please take care to notice that the Theory of Evolution only postulates that mutations occur, not how they occur. It is not a theory designed to explain what causes mutations: those causes can be radiation, pH fluctuations, statistical “typos” by the machinery in the cell, etc.: all of which are explanable by various theories of chemistry and biochemistry. Frankly, it wouldn’t matter if aliens from orbit were using bizarre technology to create mutations in populations: natural selection would still work on these and cause the best of them to outcompete the others.
The result of this is that ToE is not responsible for explaining how bad information happens in individuals, but only how bad information effects the population. So, the only thing evolution need explain in this case is how erectile dysfunction can accumulate within a population. And, we can simply say that natural selection would tend to remove erectile dysfunction from a population (except, as Granny Magda mentioned, where it is a post-reproductive effect).
But, there’s a catch: humans have learned how to combat the forces of natural selection by learning how to get plants and livestock to produce more food, allowing people to survive fatal diseases and disorders, and, as you’ve noted, reproduce with dysfunctional genitalia. Nature is not choosing who gets to reproduce: individuals are choosing for themselves. So, obviously, this is not an example of “natural selection,” but of “personal selection.”
So, the moral of the story is that you shouldn't take anything that happens to humans these days as having anything to do with biological evolution.
-----
1 I personally don’t like the term “information” because of the can of worms it opens for most creationist/IDists, but it’s generally the easiest way to relate, so I sucked it up for this message.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:33 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 4:56 AM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2726 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 17 of 55 (490456)
12-04-2008 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peg
12-04-2008 4:56 AM


Re: Evolution by Personal Selection
Hi, Peg.
Peg writes:
Are you saying that biological evolution doesnt happen anymore, or just that there are too many factors that can cause similar effects??
No. Percy and Huntard have already addressed this, but I always like to add my own little bit, too.
The result of natural selection is generally that something "less fit" dies or fails to reproduce. But, since we can make people that are "less fit" survive and reproduce, we are not allowing natural selection to remove unfitness from our populations. We're actually facilitating the propagation of unfitness, which is antithesis to evolution by natural selection.
Percy has commented that humans are apparently evolving faster now than we were anciently. I'm not sure if I fully accept that, but I haven't thought it through carefully enough to comment. But, consider this: if we are allowing everybody the opportunity to reproduce, we are preventing natural selection from driving many "unfit" traits to extinction, which ultimately will result in more persisting diversity in our populations. So, maybe that's what Percy's source was saying.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 4:56 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-04-2008 8:52 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 19 by fallacycop, posted 12-05-2008 12:29 AM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2726 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 33 of 55 (490613)
12-06-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by fallacycop
12-05-2008 12:29 AM


Re: Evolution by Personal Selection
Hi, Fallacycop.
fallacycop writes:
Bluejay writes:
But, since we can make people that are "less fit" survive and reproduce, we are not allowing natural selection to remove unfitness from our populations.
People die premature deaths all the time for many different reasons, and the ones that survive to reproductive age do not all reproduce at the same rate, if at all. Evolution is alive and well, thank you.
Granted. I never intended that answer to be a universal declaration about every death and birth in the world's population of humans.
Do you disagree with me that there are many "unfit" phenotypes that are persisting and reproducing in our populations as a direct result of medical, sanitational and agricultural practices? Clearly, these cannot be the result of natural selection.
That was my thesis: the ToE is not responsible for all variation that is being maintained in human populations these days.

-Bluejay
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by fallacycop, posted 12-05-2008 12:29 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by fallacycop, posted 12-07-2008 3:20 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
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