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Author Topic:   the phylogeographic challenge to creationism
BuckeyeChris
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 298 (266074)
12-06-2005 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
12-06-2005 12:58 PM


Re: Evolution=Random Mutaion + Selection (E=1+x-y)
Faith writes:
But it is ONLY mutation that the whole thing relies upon, as everything else works in the opposite direction, works against the genetic diversity that evolution surely must depend upon
I don't understand why you keep driving this point home. Without mutation, the ToE wouldn't work. Ok. Now what? What is the point of this exactly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 12-06-2005 12:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 12-06-2005 1:34 PM BuckeyeChris has replied

  
BuckeyeChris
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 298 (266085)
12-06-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Faith
12-06-2005 1:23 PM


Re: Rules
Why are you so hung up on the number of proccesses that are either additive or subtractive? Even if there's only 1 additive process (mutation) - if it adds more than the others subtract, you have a net gain. What's so hard about this?
Where does mutation "crumble" before our very eyes? You are saying you want to ignore mutation for now, but if it is the "lone hope" for evolution, or whatever you want to call it, what exactly are you accomplishing by not talking about it?
If you want to make the case that genetic diversity decreases over time, the one thing you better damn well NOT ignore is mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Faith, posted 12-06-2005 1:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 12-06-2005 1:44 PM BuckeyeChris has replied

  
BuckeyeChris
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 298 (266093)
12-06-2005 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
12-06-2005 1:34 PM


Re: Evolution=Random Mutaion + Selection (E=1+x-y)
I am not especially familiar with other process which introduce variability in the ToE, and frankly I don't care about them right now. Mutation, to my knowledge, is the main one. In answering my question of why you are trying to make this point, your response is basically "Because other people keep waffling about it"
I don't think the purpose of your point is to make people waffle - so in just looking at the basic definition of evolution as mutation + selection (and I'm not saying that's all that's involved in evolution), if someone were to conceed the point to you that without mutation, the whole thing falls apart - then what?
WHY are you trying to make this point? Mutation DOES occur so what are you gaining by claiming that without it, evolution doesn't happen?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 12-06-2005 1:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
BuckeyeChris
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 298 (266098)
12-06-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Faith
12-06-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Rules
Because it is not generally recognized that the majority of the processes that are taught to biology students as "evolutionary processes" in themselves do not facilitate evolution at all but in fact work against it
As I've said above, I would HOPE to accomplish making people aware that all the other processes that are called evolutionary processes aren't evolutionary at all but subtractive.
This seems to be the main point of this post.
don't let them get blurred in formulae such as mutation+selection, and THEN we can see if mutation really has this ability to counter them.
But evolution IS the combination of all these forces, TOGETHER. Evolution is not simply "the addition of genetic diversity" which seems to be your working definition, at least in this post. The additions through mutation make evolution possible, as does the subtraction/deletion/killing of selection. So the argument that those forces work against evolution certainly doesn't follow, as those forces are part of evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Faith, posted 12-06-2005 1:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 12-07-2005 3:13 AM BuckeyeChris has not replied

  
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