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Author Topic:   the phylogeographic challenge to creationism
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 298 (262521)
11-22-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mick
11-22-2005 5:17 PM


So the basic microevolutionary process of spatial genetic structure originating from geographic distance appears to account quite well for distinct genetic groupings within species (amoenus), between species (amoenus and ruficaudus) and within a genus (amoenus, minimus, townsendii, merriami).
If you accept microevolution but reject macroevolution, how do you account for the spatial genetic structure of the Tamias genus without using microevolutionary processes? What non-microevolutionary mechanism prevents these easily-hybridizable species from collapsing into a single unstructured unit?
I don't get it. What does this show? That geographic distance accounts for speciation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mick, posted 11-22-2005 5:17 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by mick, posted 11-22-2005 7:55 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 298 (262557)
11-22-2005 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mick
11-22-2005 7:55 PM


I'm trying to show that a microevolutionary mechanism ("i only mate with individuals I can access geographically, and my offspring will therefore have geographically-distinct karyotypes") can (at least in principle) be responsible for the genetic structure of populations, species and genera. In other words, microevoluationary processes can account for the maintenance of macroevolutionary structures (such as the genetic structure of Tamias).
OK, I get this. But didn't you say that these different species within the genus Tamias interbreed? How then can we call them distinct species? What's the rationale?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mick, posted 11-22-2005 7:55 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by mick, posted 11-22-2005 8:28 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 298 (262574)
11-22-2005 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by mick
11-22-2005 8:28 PM


Divergence
(By the way, it was a great post. I forgot to tell you that. I'm not criticizing it, just asking ignorant questions.)
So an example of a "microevolutionary process" would be geographic distance. You have a group of chipmunks and some of them wandered off and started their own group, which after awhile became a variant. Overtime it became a new species or semi-species.
Now creationism says that microevolution occurs as you stipulated, but it also says it never advances any further. (Why it would not advance any further is a mystery to me. It seems to me it would almost have to).
What your example shows us is that these variant races of chipmunks, or different specie, or however we wish to label them, get "maintained." They don't over time get all mixed up together again and become like they were before this separation happened, right?
But I would not think that creationism would be concerned with maintenance of the status quo but with further divergence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by mick, posted 11-22-2005 8:28 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 11-22-2005 9:44 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 18 by mick, posted 11-24-2005 12:31 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 298 (262582)
11-22-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brad McFall
11-22-2005 9:44 PM


Re: Divergence
"There is a correlation between causal acyclic graph representations of macrothremodynamic thermostats and parent to offspring ratios per clade."
Well, that certainly clears things up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 11-22-2005 9:44 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Brad McFall, posted 11-22-2005 9:53 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 298 (262949)
11-24-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mick
11-24-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Divergence
"There is a direct correlation between causal acyclic graph representations of macrothremodynamic thermostats and parent to offspring ratios per clade."
Mick, do you understand this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mick, posted 11-24-2005 12:59 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by mick, posted 11-24-2005 3:30 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 298 (263057)
11-25-2005 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by mick
11-24-2005 5:14 PM


Even if no creationists post replies on this thread, I hope it will be a useful repository for information on the phylogeographic challenge to creationism.
I don't think the creationists see the significance. I'm having a problem myself. What is the relationship between microevolutionary processes maintaining a status quo and "macroevolution"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mick, posted 11-24-2005 5:14 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 11-25-2005 2:26 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 28 by mick, posted 11-26-2005 4:31 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
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