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Author Topic:   A barrier to macroevolution & objections to it
jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 303 (348859)
09-13-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
09-13-2006 4:22 PM


Actually, lots of shifting going on.
People have made a claim that there is a barrier. Others have said, what barrier? If I put money aside everyday, what limits how much money gets set aside?
Until you and the others can point to such a limiting barrier it is simply a WAG on your part and not anything to be taken seriously.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 4:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 4:31 PM jar has not replied
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 4:41 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 303 (348868)
09-13-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
09-13-2006 4:41 PM


Re: Actually, lots of shifting going on.
How much you have limits it. This is the barrier.
Very good.
Now how does that limit it?
Suppose I continue adding to the pile for the rest of my life?
Suppose all of my descendants keep adding to the pile for the rest of their lives?
Suppose all of their descendants keep adding to the pile for the rest of their lives?
What is the limit on how much money can be in the pile?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 4:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 6:02 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 126 of 303 (348900)
09-13-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
09-13-2006 6:02 PM


Re: Actually, lots of shifting going on.
As I said, the limit is what you have. You can't add to it if you don't have it. Mutation doesn't have it.
So you keep asserting.
Once again.
I put money in a pile.
Each of my descendants keeps putting money in the pile.
Each of their descendants keps putting money in the pile.
What is the mechanism that limits how much money can be in the pile?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 6:02 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 303 (348960)
09-13-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Faith
09-13-2006 11:17 PM


Re: Diversity is reduced in reality; increase has not been SHOWN
I KNOW mutations happen. But the fact is that populations that get reduced as described DO NOT recover. IN REALITY. They DON'T.
Ah, but we do know that populations do go through severe bottlenecks and do recover. Humans have done so. Even under the Flood fantasy humans recovered and in fact ALL species not just recovered by underwhen hyper-macro-catawumpus-look-out-here-it-comes-again diversity gains. In the real world we know that there have been several such bottlenecks for humans, one about 143,000 years ago and another only about 60,000 years ago.
So both in the real world and in the fantasy world of the flood, diversity recovery after a severe bottleneck is a given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 11:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 11:30 PM jar has replied
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 11:33 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 143 of 303 (348968)
09-13-2006 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
09-13-2006 11:30 PM


Re: Diversity is reduced in reality; increase has not been SHOWN
You deny the Flood even happened, jar.
That is not a matter of belief but rather a conclusion based on all the evidence.
BUT...
even if the the Flood myth were true, then EVERY species was reduced to only the genetic base of a handful of critters and the total number of critters reduced to the few that would barely crowd one or two little football fields. Yet in the blink of a eye compared to what the evolution model uses, life went from that handfull of genetic material to all of the diversity we see today.
As to the bottlenecks in humans, the same basic evidence you use to support your cheetah example is what is used for humans. And there we do see two genetic bottlenecks where the number of humans was reduced. Yet humans recovered from both of those events to the diversity we see today.
Of course the TOE requires far less drastic a rate of increase in diversity than any of the Biblical fairytales like the Flood.
So where is this barrier that stops macroevolution over long periods of time but also allows it to happen in a blink of an eye when the Biblical Creationists and Floodist want to use it?
I put some money in a pile every day for the rest of my life.
All of my descendants put money in the pile every day of their lives.
Each of their descendants continue the tradition by putting money in the pile every day of their lives.
What limits how much money is in the pile?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 09-13-2006 11:30 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 194 of 303 (349298)
09-15-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
09-15-2006 10:55 AM


Once again waiting for an answer
to the issues raised in Message 140 and Message 143.
Faith, we can look around and see the diversity that exists today.
That needs to be explained.
The TOE explains what is seen today AND the record that has been left.
You must present a model that does a BETTER job of explaining the diversity that is seen today.
Where is the model that better explains the diversity seen today as well as the record of past critters, and where is the evidence that supports that model?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 09-15-2006 10:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 09-15-2006 12:15 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 198 of 303 (349302)
09-15-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
09-15-2006 12:15 PM


Yet again trying to get an answer
Built-in genetic potentials play out in all the diversity that is seen. Pre-existing alleles in a population are all it takes to bring about speciation.
A nice bit of throwing a plate of spaghetti on the ceiling to see what sticks perhaps but certainly not a model of anything.
To reiterate
to the issues raised in Message 140 and Message 143.
Faith, we can look around and see the diversity that exists today.
That needs to be explained.
The TOE explains what is seen today AND the record that has been left.
You must present a model that does a BETTER job of explaining the diversity that is seen today.
Where is the model that better explains the diversity seen today as well as the record of past critters, and where is the evidence that supports that model?
Where is the evidence for your super genome and all them alleles?
And yes, still waiting for a response to the questions raised in Message 140 and Message 143.
In case your links are not working, here is the body of message 143.
BUT...
even if the the Flood myth were true, then EVERY species was reduced to only the genetic base of a handful of critters and the total number of critters reduced to the few that would barely crowd one or two little football fields. Yet in the blink of a eye compared to what the evolution model uses, life went from that handfull of genetic material to all of the diversity we see today.
As to the bottlenecks in humans, the same basic evidence you use to support your cheetah example is what is used for humans. And there we do see two genetic bottlenecks where the number of humans was reduced. Yet humans recovered from both of those events to the diversity we see today.
Of course the TOE requires far less drastic a rate of increase in diversity than any of the Biblical fairytales like the Flood.
So where is this barrier that stops macroevolution over long periods of time but also allows it to happen in a blink of an eye when the Biblical Creationists and Floodist want to use it?
I put some money in a pile every day for the rest of my life.
All of my descendants put money in the pile every day of their lives.
Each of their descendants continue the tradition by putting money in the pile every day of their lives.
What limits how much money is in the pile?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 09-15-2006 12:15 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 424 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 207 of 303 (349518)
09-15-2006 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
09-15-2006 10:45 PM


I know you have many to respond to but ...
The issues brought up in Message 140, Message 143 and in Message 198 are still wait for the model that explains how you explain the growth in diversity since the alleged Flood.
In case you can't find them, here is a summary of the content:
BUT...
even if the the Flood myth were true, then EVERY species was reduced to only the genetic base of a handful of critters and the total number of critters reduced to the few that would barely crowd one or two little football fields. Yet in the blink of a eye compared to what the evolution model uses, life went from that handfull of genetic material to all of the diversity we see today.
As to the bottlenecks in humans, the same basic evidence you use to support your cheetah example is what is used for humans. And there we do see two genetic bottlenecks where the number of humans was reduced. Yet humans recovered from both of those events to the diversity we see today.
Of course the TOE requires far less drastic a rate of increase in diversity than any of the Biblical fairytales like the Flood.
So where is this barrier that stops macroevolution over long periods of time but also allows it to happen in a blink of an eye when the Biblical Creationists and Floodist want to use it?
I put some money in a pile every day for the rest of my life.
All of my descendants put money in the pile every day of their lives.
Each of their descendants continue the tradition by putting money in the pile every day of their lives.
What limits how much money is in the pile?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 09-15-2006 10:45 PM Faith has not replied

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