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Author Topic:   A barrier to macroevolution & objections to it
subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 61 of 303 (348566)
09-12-2006 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by mjfloresta
09-12-2006 8:56 PM


The formation of novel organs for one thing...
Evolution of the Eye
Next?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by mjfloresta, posted 09-12-2006 8:56 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by mjfloresta, posted 09-12-2006 11:43 PM subbie has replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 62 of 303 (348569)
09-12-2006 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by subbie
09-12-2006 11:34 PM


WOW
Here's how some scientists think some eyes may have evolved: The simple light-sensitive spot on the skin of some ancestral creature gave it some tiny survival advantage, perhaps allowing it to evade a predator. Random changes then created a depression in the light-sensitive patch, a deepening pit that made "vision" a little sharper. At the same time, the pit's opening gradually narrowed, so light entered through a small aperture, like a pinhole camera.
I've been asking for empirical proof that mutation is the mechanism accounting for all the variation of life. Being as this is the fundamental concept on which evolution stands or falls, that doesn't sound like an unreasonable request, does it?
Here's how some scientists think some eyes may have evolved
That's the scope of the empirical proof? Some scientists think SOME eyes MAY have evolved...And you wonder why there's skepticism of ToE?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by subbie, posted 09-12-2006 11:34 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by subbie, posted 09-12-2006 11:50 PM mjfloresta has replied
 Message 65 by fallacycop, posted 09-13-2006 12:05 AM mjfloresta has replied
 Message 82 by RickJB, posted 09-13-2006 3:35 AM mjfloresta has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 63 of 303 (348571)
09-12-2006 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by mjfloresta
09-12-2006 11:43 PM


Re: WOW
Did you read and understand the entire piece? Or did you simply latch onto a couple of sentences that you thought would support your unfounded disbelief?
The conclusion regarding the evolution of the eye is based on a series of logical steps, small changes, that could have occurred over time. In addition, there are currently in existence living organisms that exhibit each of these steps.
You insist that is it impossible for evolution to proceed in this manner. The link I provided shows how it is possible. If this is not enough for you to accept as a reasonably scientific showing that the eye could have evolved as hypothesized, please give your reasons.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by mjfloresta, posted 09-12-2006 11:43 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:09 AM subbie has replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5550 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 64 of 303 (348573)
09-12-2006 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by mjfloresta
09-12-2006 11:24 PM


you did not address anywhere in your post my quaestion about why new organs should be seen as difficult to achieve by a sequence of mutations. You simply say that it is a problem but give no reason for it. That's not very convincing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by mjfloresta, posted 09-12-2006 11:24 PM mjfloresta has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5550 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 65 of 303 (348574)
09-13-2006 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by mjfloresta
09-12-2006 11:43 PM


Re: WOW
I've been asking for empirical proof that mutation is the mechanism accounting for all the variation of life. Being as this is the fundamental concept on which evolution stands or falls, that doesn't sound like an unreasonable request, does it?
Do you have any reason but your own incredulity to doubt that mutations (an empirically observed fact) over time will add up and create novel lifeforms with (yes) new organs? I ask because all you've given was a argument of incredulity which not very convincing at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by mjfloresta, posted 09-12-2006 11:43 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:16 AM fallacycop has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 66 of 303 (348579)
09-13-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by subbie
09-12-2006 11:50 PM


Re: WOW
Did you read and understand the entire piece? Or did you simply latch onto a couple of sentences that you thought would support your unfounded disbelief?
Yes, I read the whole piece. It says nothing I haven't seen before (I am quite familiar with this argument) and as you will see it is an insufficient explanation by far.
The conclusion regarding the evolution of the eye is based on a series of logical steps, small changes, that could have occurred over time.
Could have occured is the operative phrase. Whether these proposed changes are logical or not is not the issue. They're logical to you, assuming ToE. They're anything but logical to me.
The point is, what is laid out here (and this is the extent of the "evidence" I've seen in this regard) is a hypothesis, a story. It Could be, it could NOT be. In and of itself, a hypothesis is not proof. A hypothesis needs to be proved; it can't be the proof as well as being the hypothesis. A self-proving hypothesis? So, there's a hypothesis, what next? It should be proven. Your following statement provides what I see to be the extent of the "proof" for this theory.
In addition, there are currently in existence living organisms that exhibit each of these steps.
That's not surprising. Why? Because the very hypothetical pathway you are espousing is the direct result of observing these steps in living organisms, which you are now taking as your proof. But they can't be your proof. Because they were essential in constructing the paradigm in the first place.
Going beyond this dilemna, we know that different types of eyes exist. How do we know that they are related or transitional?
Oh, I almost forgot. Previously, when I asked for experimentation to be done, proving a mutation/mechanism link between various forms of eyes (drosophilia vs mouse eye) it was claimed that drosophilia and the mouse represent horizontal lineages, not vertical (ancestral/descendant); therefore my demand of empirical evidence was rejected as impossible.
When I requested that experimentation be done on species with clearly difference types of the same organ that belonged to a vertical (ancestral/descendant) lineage, it was implied that such experimentation is not possible due to the fact the the ancestors are no longer extant.
In addition, there are currently in existence living organisms that exhibit each of these steps.
You, apparently do not share this belief. Since you state that there are extant organisms exhibiting each necessary step in the evolution of the eye, what is preventing experimentation from being done to test the mutation mechanism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by subbie, posted 09-12-2006 11:50 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by subbie, posted 09-13-2006 12:16 AM mjfloresta has not replied
 Message 72 by NosyNed, posted 09-13-2006 12:38 AM mjfloresta has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1285 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 67 of 303 (348582)
09-13-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by mjfloresta
09-13-2006 12:09 AM


A Dialogue
mjfloresta: It is impossible for complex organs to form through mutations. IMPOSSIBLE! How do I know this? Because I can't understand how it could. If I can't understand it, it's impossible.
Science: Here is a way it could have happened, including real world examples of each step.
mjfloresta: You haven't proved it DID happen that way. You have only said it COULD have happened that way. Therefore, it's still IMPOSSIBLE!
The End.
***
I have no response to your descriptions of previous discussions, since I was not a part of them. However, I don't understand how it's possible for such discussions to have taken place, therefore I must conclude they could not have happened.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:09 AM mjfloresta has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 68 of 303 (348583)
09-13-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by fallacycop
09-13-2006 12:05 AM


Re: WOW
I ask because all you've given was a argument of incredulity which not very convincing at all.
I know it won't do any good, because I've asked many times before, but stop misrepresenting and ignoring my arguments.
I haven't approached the argument of incredulity with a ten foot pole and a step ladder.
I've challenged that mutation has NEVER been demonstrated empirically to account for the creation of novel organs.
This isn't being incredulous. This isn't being ambiguous. This is a straightforward claim that deserves straightforward answers - not the constant misrepresentation that I've been getting.
Example:
Do you have any reason but your own incredulity to doubt that mutations (an empirically observed fact) over time will add up and create novel lifeforms with (yes) new organs?
You put in the part in parentheses to imply that I doubt that mutations are an empirically observed fact. I've never doubted that mutations occur and I've never said anything to that effect on this forum. Yet I have to constantly correct the seemingly intentional misrepresentations of what I have said and do believe.
I'll say no more, but neither will I continue to respond to deliberate misrepresentations of my arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by fallacycop, posted 09-13-2006 12:05 AM fallacycop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by mick, posted 09-13-2006 12:36 AM mjfloresta has replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3628 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 69 of 303 (348588)
09-13-2006 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by mjfloresta
09-12-2006 11:24 PM


Creationists beg Science: 'Prove my point for me--please!'
You must be losing the argument, MJ. You've given up trying to prove your assertion. Now you're reduced to asking the other side to prove it for you.
the ToE seems to a priori disregard the possibility that there may be obstacles to mutation as a mechanism for accounting for all of life's diversity. ToE makes the grand and sweeping assertion that mutation IS a sufficient mechanism to account for such change.
No 'grand and sweeping assumptions' are necessary. It's how things work. Steady accumulations of small changes add up over time. Deposit minerals drop by drop onto a cave floor over a long enough period of time and you have a stalagmite. Throw spare change into a jar over a long enough period of time and you get a substantial amount of money.
You're trying to make this common observation sound like an unfounded sweeping assumption of the kind you have been making. But the fact remains that the gradual accumulation of small changes can add up to big change. Everyone observes this in the world. It is a common observation.
What would stop minerals from building on the cave floor? What would stop coins from accumulating? Until you can show us that something does, we have every reason to expect small changes to accumulate.
But it doesn't seem to even look for possible obstacles. It just assumes there are none.
No one looks for obstacles because there is no reason to think they exist.
We know change happens. There is no evidence that anything stands in the way of further change. There is plenty of evidence that changes do in fact build over time, and that this kind of change takes living things a long way. So the burden of proof is on anyone who denies this.
If you think obstacles exist, produce the evidence.
If you don't have any evidence, admit that you don't.
Either way, be a Mensch about it. It's silly to complain that others who have no reason to entertain your hypothesis are not doing your research for you. Wave a white flag, or get off your butt and launch a research effort.
.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by mjfloresta, posted 09-12-2006 11:24 PM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:33 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 70 of 303 (348592)
09-13-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Archer Opteryx
09-13-2006 12:24 AM


Re: Creationists beg scientists: Please prove my point for me!
I just asked that my claims not be misrepresented. Why I bother, I really don't know.
Now, I have never stopped making my argument.
If you think obstacles exist, produce the evidence.
I have continually asserted that obstacles exist and one obstacle is the creation of novel organs.
Have you read any of this thread, or did you just jump in to insert random drivel.
As far as the ridiculous analogy of change accumlutating, you have no concept of how to apply an appropriate analogy. My goodness, if proving scientific theory was as easy of creating a pathetic, inappropriate analogy...
If you want a real analogy, try throwing pennies on the floor and see if the statue of liberty shows up.
Please, if you're not going to address any of the assertions which I have made and continually make, and if you're going to continue to utterly misrepresent me, I'm not interested in interaction any further with you..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-13-2006 12:24 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by fallacycop, posted 09-13-2006 12:57 AM mjfloresta has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 71 of 303 (348595)
09-13-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by mjfloresta
09-13-2006 12:16 AM


mutation and the origin of novel organs
Hi mjfloresta,
I appreciate your desire to see evidence that mutations can account for the origin of new organs. But I hope you also appreciate that it is a tall order. For a start, organs do not arise as direct translations of the genetic code - they arise in organisms through a process of development from the zygote to the adult animal, and the mechanism that gives rise to them is a rather complex interplay of a whole bunch of proteins within the living system. There is no "gene for the gastrointestinal tract" and so no mutation to some predecessor gene that might have give rise to the organ.
If you are really interested in this you might want to start by looking at the developmental biology literature and especially that focussed on the evolution of body plans in invertebrates. For example, this article gives an overview of genetic changes resulting in transformations of the arthropod body plan. The article deals with a variety of evolutionary transformations including the evolution of halteres from hindwings in diptera, the evolution of elytra from forewings in coleoptera, and the evolution of foreleg combs. Just to give one example:
Angelini and Kaufman writes:
The Coleoptera are perhaps the most successful lineage of animals, with over 350,000 described species (29). They are characterized by the modification of the forewings into elytra, a protective covering over the abdomen. Therefore, in Coleoptera, such as the red flour beetle, Tribolium castaneum, flight is dependent dependent on the hindwings (T3), which are similar to the single pair of wings (T2) in Diptera. What is the role, if any, of Ubx in these modified forewings, the elytra? It is possible that Ubx acts to modify wing development to produce elytra from the T2 segment in Tribolium, just as it does in the T3 disc of Drosophila to produce halteres. Alternatively, Ubx may simply identify T3 structures and regulate a separate set of target genes to allow hindwing development in the beetle. Recently, these hypotheses were tested by Tomoyasu and coworkers, who used RNA interference to suppress Ubx function in Tribolium larvae (87). They found that with the reduction of Ubx activity the T2 and T3 dorsal imaginal discs develop as elytra. Similarly, mutations in the Tribolium Scr orthologue, which is expressed in theT1segment, produce ectopic elytra-like structures on T1, rather than wing-like structures (14, 15). The Antp orthologue in Tribolium appears to have no influence on the identity of elytra or hindwings, since its suppression causes no defects in these structures (87). Therefore, in the absence of input from Hox genes, such as Ubx, the dorsal imaginal discs develop as elytra. This contrasts the situation in Drosophila, where in the lack of Ubx the imaginal discs develop as two pairs of wings (57). Furthermore, Tomoyasu and coworkers have shown that in Tribolium, Ubx does not repress target genes as it does in the haltere disc of Drosophila. Instead, these genes are expressed in unique patterns in the elytra that are independent of Ubx regulation. It seems likely that the ancestral role of Ubx has been to identify T3. During evolution, as T2 and T3 structures were modified differently in separate lineages, different target genes came under Ubx regulation in order to produce distinct morphologies unique to T3. In this example, the unregulated (or at least Hox-free) pathway has diverged to produce the elytra developmental program. However, for the T2 discs to develop as elytra and to retain a functional pair of hindwings, Ubx would have to acquire regulatory control over wing development in order to preserve this developmental mechanism. This is very different from the evolutionary scenario imagined for the Diptera, in which the evolution of a novel structure (halteres) was accompanied by the appearance of novel regulatory relationships to produce that structure. Forewing modifications appear in other insect groups as well. The forewings of Orthoptera are modified into a leathery protective form called tegmina. Many species of Heteroptera feed on plants, from which they acquire toxic substances used to deter predators. The forewings or hemelytra are often thickened proximally and brightly colored to advertise the insects’ toxicity. It is interesting to speculate whether modifications in wing patterning seen in the evolution of coleopteran elytra might also have been paralleled in the evolution of these other modified forewings, and whether the development of the more typical hindwings is dependent on suppression of the modified developmental mechanisms by Ubx.
So it appears that we do have candidate genes whose mutation had direct effects on the evolution of novel structures. You probably wouldn't call the elytra organs but it is a macroevolutionary change of some magnitude, so hopefully of interest.
I don't know if you can access the scientific literature - I would be happy to send you a pdf of the article (27 pages long) if you like.
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:16 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by NosyNed, posted 09-13-2006 12:41 AM mick has not replied
 Message 74 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:47 AM mick has replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 72 of 303 (348596)
09-13-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by mjfloresta
09-13-2006 12:09 AM


How do we know?
How do we know that they are related or transitional?
Because, like much of life, we see the traces of the history written into development pathways and the controlling genetics. ALl such lines of evidence add up to the same message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:09 AM mjfloresta has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 73 of 303 (348601)
09-13-2006 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by mick
09-13-2006 12:36 AM


A translation
I'd suggest that you offer a translation of that abstract into something like English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by mick, posted 09-13-2006 12:36 AM mick has not replied

mjfloresta
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 277
From: N.Y.
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 74 of 303 (348604)
09-13-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by mick
09-13-2006 12:36 AM


Re: mutation and the origin of novel organs
Thank you, Mick, for your input.
I am familiar with much of the drophila literature but not the articles you've provided on Coleoptera or diptera so I'll take a look.
Thanks for the offer. I do have access to the Scientific Literature through my school - but not from home. If you don't mind sending the file my email is: mjfloresta@yahoo.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by mick, posted 09-13-2006 12:36 AM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by mick, posted 09-13-2006 12:53 AM mjfloresta has replied

mick
Member (Idle past 5016 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 75 of 303 (348605)
09-13-2006 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by mjfloresta
09-13-2006 12:47 AM


Re: mutation and the origin of novel organs
I've sent the article by email
Mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by mjfloresta, posted 09-13-2006 12:47 AM mjfloresta has replied

Replies to this message:
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