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Author Topic:   Willowtree's Scientific Evidence against Evolution
mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 47 of 299 (74211)
12-19-2003 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by The Elder
12-18-2003 7:09 PM


Elder,
It seems to me that the Thylicine has such a phenotypic makeup wolf/tiger, because of herditary descendent.
And you know this how? Please remember the Thylacine is a marsupial, & the felidae are placentals.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by The Elder, posted 12-18-2003 7:09 PM The Elder has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Darwin's Terrier, posted 12-19-2003 6:28 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 55 by The Elder, posted 12-20-2003 3:46 AM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 57 of 299 (74418)
12-20-2003 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by The Elder
12-20-2003 3:46 AM


Elder,
It has been long understood that ontogeny does NOT recapitulate phylogeny. It is true that phylogenetic atavisms can be preserved ontologically, but they don't have to be.
Therefore a thylacine embryo looking like another embryo where both adult forms are similar/convergent isn't particularly surprising.
It is much more likely that the thylacine evolved from ancestral marsupial stock (it being a marsupial) rather than evolved marsupialness from placental carnivora stock that never existed in Australia (therefore a little unlikely!). It therefore stands to reason that canines & thylacines are the result of convergent evolution based upon similar lifestyles rather than sharing common derived characters.
Mark
[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by The Elder, posted 12-20-2003 3:46 AM The Elder has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by The Elder, posted 12-26-2003 9:29 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 75 of 299 (74646)
12-22-2003 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Cold Foreign Object
12-22-2003 12:03 AM


Willow,
If a Mensa IQ science reporter for 20 years rejects evolution and he rejects creationism then this is called independant corroboration.
No, it isn't, it's called someone changing their mind. Opinions do not equal evidence.
If opinion is so important to you as a substitute of real evidence then you should still accept evolution on that basis.
I haven't seen you provide a single legitimate evidence that falsifies evolution.
All lot of people slammed me for not posting scientific evidence but the evidence I did post was conveniently ignored.
Why shouldn't it be? You claimed to have presented scientific evidence against evolution, & now admit you didn't? Why is anyone commpelled to rebut non-scientific evidence?
Mark
------------------
"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-22-2003 12:03 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 92 of 299 (75296)
12-27-2003 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by The Elder
12-26-2003 9:29 PM


Elder,
So you are saying that WRT evolution that convergent evolution can be a product of genetics which where activated because of the enviorment?
I'd quibble with the word "activated", but basically yes. However, that does not mean that there are genes with a similar sequence for "wolf like skull", for example. Similar phenotypes don't have to have similar genotypes. Direct Mendelian inheritance is pretty rare, & most phenotypes are affected by large numbers of genes & non-synonymous changes to any of them will produce changes. It stands to reason that changes to one gene will produce similar effects to another. In other words, the genome has more than one way to skin a cat. Wolves & thylacines don't have the same morphology because they have the same nucleotide sequences. They share a similar morphology because the genes they were lumbered with had mutations retained that favoured similar morphologies (although most likely at different loci).
I am saying that the FETUS of a Thylacine does not look any different then the full grown Thylacine (except the stripes),SO, what exactly developed because of adaptation or convergent evolution?
All of the wolf like features, obviously. Why is is such a problem for you that the foetus possess' wolf like features when the adult does? Doesn't a dog foetus look like an adult dog in much the same way? Doesn't a human foetus have a relatively large brain just like the adult, do you think the child is doing sums in its head pre-birth? Doesn't a fish foetus have fins? (Pls note the thylacine "foetus" is about to be born looking at its stage of development, if it hadn't already been).
Of course that does not mean that the Thylacine is a product of convergent evolution or evolution at all but just another species. But of course, I assume that there is fossil record, and dna, too support the development of a Thylacine according to evolution?
I thank Loudmouth for this comparison. Note how the two placentals group more closely than the marsupial?
Let's look at the facts again. Carnivora are not native to Tasmania, & they are placental. Thylacine is a marsupial carnivore that is found nowhere else. What is the likeliest scenario, that Thylacine evolved similar adaptations to wolves based upon a similar lifestyle despite them not sharing a carnivora common ancestor, or that the ancestor thylacine was a marsupial, evolved into a placental mammal & back again, despite no canidae existing in Tasmania for the thylacine to share the placental ancestry with?
It's pretty obvious, Elder.
Mark
------------------
"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall
[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-27-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by The Elder, posted 12-26-2003 9:29 PM The Elder has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Coragyps, posted 12-27-2003 10:26 AM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 95 of 299 (75319)
12-27-2003 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Coragyps
12-27-2003 10:26 AM


Coragyps
That was bothering me, too. I'll bet the rent that that picture was of an infant thylacine from the pouch, not a "true" fetus.
I agree, marsupial newborns are little buttons of flesh that can barely move, much more so than placental newborns. That "foetus" is a little too developed to be ripped untimely from the mothers womb, if you ask me.
Mark
------------------
"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Coragyps, posted 12-27-2003 10:26 AM Coragyps has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 151 of 299 (77309)
01-09-2004 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Cold Foreign Object
01-08-2004 8:11 PM


Willowtree,
I can't for the life of me understand why you are so hung up on Milton being an evolutionist. Who cares? The point surely is whether his arguments are sufficiently empirically & logically supported, or not. Without repeating the text of others, they aren't. Your only defence has been to parrot that Milton is an evo & you have independent corroboration. You don't, what you have is an argument from authority.
The best that can be said that you have found an evo that agrees with you, this in no way means he is right, however. So why don't you do us all a favour & argue the evidence, without committing the logical flaw of hanging your hat on someones spoken word or opinion rather than their presented evidence?
Mark

"Physical Reality of Matchette’s EVOLUTIONARY zero-atom-unit in a transcendental c/e illusion" - Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-08-2004 8:11 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by PaulK, posted 01-09-2004 9:33 AM mark24 has not replied
 Message 155 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-09-2004 8:57 PM mark24 has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 159 of 299 (77726)
01-11-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Cold Foreign Object
01-09-2004 8:57 PM


Willowtree,
Irrelevant. The ACTUAL point made is that you are committing a logical flaw, arguing from authority & ot evidence. Milton ISN'T evidence.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-09-2004 8:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5225 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 188 of 299 (80398)
01-23-2004 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Rand Al'Thor
01-23-2004 8:23 PM


*gulp*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 01-23-2004 8:23 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

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