The bible and homosexuality

PecosGeorge responds to me:

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have you ever had your intestines scoped? The natural impulse of the sphincter muscle is to expel the object inserted.

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Says who? You?Just because you re incapable of controlling your rectal muscles doesn't mean nobody else is.Have you ever tried to lift 400 pounds over your head? The natural impulse is to collapse under the weight.But if you work at it and train your body to be able to withstand the weight, lifting 400 pounds over your head can be done without too much difficulty. The average human is incapable of doing this, but a properly trained weightlifter can.Are you saying that it is immoral to be a weightlifter and be capable of surpassing the physical capabilities of the average person?Just because you panic over something entering your anus doesn't mean everybody else shares your phobia. Just because you haven't learned how to control your rectal muscles doesn't mean nobody else has.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Are you saying that gays get properly trained to counter nature?
Controlling rectal muscles is automatic, in other words, you don't. Just like you don't control your heart muscle.

Does anyone else find that this just strikes them as lunacy?We have been reduced to debating the physical details of anal sex to determine whether homosexuality is moral or immoral in God's eyes.Sigh... whatever.

I assume you've sat down and talked to all of them?Sure, I know people who know people that have ex-homo Christian friends and one or two has told me that their friends still have struggles from time to time. I wouldn't doubt it. No one said its easy to do the right thing.BTW, I don't know what ya'll thought I meant by epistemological rehabilitation. I simply meant studying God's Word, learning and applying Bible doctrine, and developing a closer relationship with God.

Thank God in the Episcopal Church a homosexual person can remain a homosexual and a Christian. If he works hard at it (the faith part) he (or she) can even become a Bishop.It is very sad that there are still people in the Christian faith that believe they need to change homosexuals.To any of you out there, just remember, Jesus and God love you just as you are. Don't change a thing.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

PecosGeorge responds to me:

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Are you saying that gays get properly trained to counter nature?

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No. I am saying that gays get properly trained in how to have sex using the body parts they have. Anal sex is perfectly natural. If it weren't, you couldn't do it. Since people (usually straight people, by the way) have anal sex all the time, it obviously must be a perfectly natural thing to do or it wouldn't happen so often.There is nothing that you can do that is unnatural. If it were unnatural, it couldn't happen anywhere in nature. Humans are a part of nature, so everything humans do is natural.This is exactly what straight women have to learn when it comes to vaginal sex. It isn't a simple question of inserting the penis into the vagina as if it were a gaping hole. If a woman doesn't want you to enter, you're going to have work at it and force yourself inside. Given the common nervousness that happens the first time, she may involuntarily tense up, which causes pain during intercourse. This can cause a viscious circle since she'll start expecting it to hurt which causes her to tense up which causes it to hurt which makes her more tense....Instead, she needs to learn how to relax. Stop, take a deep breath, relax, and push out. Don't bear down like you're having a baby, but by gently pushing out, you expand the musculature which widens the opening and makes penetration easier.This is precisely identical to anal sex. You have to learn how to relax. If you panic, you'll tense up. Tense up, it'll hurt. If it hurts, you'll only get more tense. Instead, you need to stop, take a deep breath, relax, and push out. Not like you're overwhelmingly constipated, but by gently pushing out, you expand the musculature which widens the opening and makes penetration easier.Just as the vagina can expand to have a baby pass through it, the anus can expand to have a fist pass through it. A penis should be no problem once you learn how to control your muscles.

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Controlling rectal muscles is automatic,

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No, it isn't.That's why you have to potty train your child. It isn't just a question of learning the appropriate place to go. It's a question of being able to feel what is going on inside your rectum and controlling when you wish to flex your rectal muscles.

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in other words, you don't. Just like you don't control your heart muscle.

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Yes, you do. It's called biofeedback. If you concentrate and are patient, you can learn how to control your heart rate.Take your breathing. It is an autonomic function (you'll still breathe even if you are unconscious), but it is also under conscious control. Many people don't breathe very well. They got into the habit of shallow breathing, using their chests as their bellows, and that's all they really know how to do. They can be retrained to take deeper breaths, but it requires learning how to control your diaphragm.That's what singing is all about: Controlling your airway and it starts with your diaphragm. Most people have no idea how to support from the bottom of the belly all the way through to the lips in order to provide a clear tone that can be held for great lengths of time.Your body doesn't instinctively know how to do that. You have to be taught.So since every other part of your body needs to be exercised, requires you being taught in how to use it in order to make it realize its full potential, why are you so skittish about this one?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Hangdawg13 responds to me:

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I assume you've sat down and talked to all of them?

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Personally? No. I'm not a psychiatrist.I have, however, read the studies of those who have had to clean up after the mess of the "ex-gay ministries." They have sat them down and talked to them and they have not found anybody who has managed to completely convert to heterosexuality. The same-sex attraction is always there and they usually slip within three years and engage in sex with someone of the same sex. They then feel extremely guilty, feeling that they have "failed" somehow, and typically end up worse psychologically than they were when they started.

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BTW, I don't know what ya'll thought I meant by epistemological rehabilitation. I simply meant studying God's Word, learning and applying Bible doctrine, and developing a closer relationship with God.

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We know.It doesn't work.Why do you think the big famous "ex-gay" ministry is called "Exodus"? It didn't occur to you that they chose a biblical reference for a reason? The great trek out of slavery?The problem is, they don't keep track of their "graduates." Why do you think that is? Might it possibly be because they know that their efforts don't work and if they refuse to keep track of the outcomes, they can continue to fool themselves into thinking they're doing some good? By focusing only on the first day after finishing "treatment" and not three years later, they can claim success?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Hangdawg13 responds to me:

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Does anyone else find that this just strikes them as lunacy?

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I'm not the one saying that something that happens millions of times a day is "physically impossible." I'm not the one saying that the penis doesn't fit in the anus when millions of people are proving that sentiment wrong right now......and most of them straight, by the way.

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We have been reduced to debating the physical details of anal sex to determine whether homosexuality is moral or immoral in God's eyes.

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When you try to claim that the reason god doesn't like it is because it is "unnatural," then the obvious course of rebuttal is to show that it is, indeed, quite natural. Pretty much every mammalian species out there engages in it, it does not cause any violent trauma, and it obviously can be quite pleasurable or nobody would do it.Your argument is, essentially, "God says it's wrong and you can tell that it's wrong because it hurts."Well, no, it doesn't hurt. So let's follow the logic:If A, then B.
Not B, therefore not A.If god dislikes it, it hurts.
It doesn't hurt, therefore god doesn't dislike it."Whatever," indeed. Don't confuse your poor grasp of logic with a universal lack of comprehension.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

To PecosGeorge:I feel neglected and ignored. Are these Christian values one display towards acquaintances?Patiently awaiting your reply to post 210.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

There is a fantastic sketch about this subject in the first season of Mr. Show (an old HBO sketch show with David Cross and Bob 'President of Beers' Odenkirk). The premise is a religious, 700 Club type program where the 'reformed homosexual' (David Cross) recounts how many times he has fallen from the hetero wagon but keeps coming back to be saved. The sketch ends with the show's host plugging David's future relapses at the upcoming Mardi Gras and Gay Pride parades.This message has been edited by custard, 06-15-2004 02:09 PM

truthlover writes:

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Slavery has been common in a number of societies where it bore no resemblance to the awful things that happened to blacks in the United States, and where it was little different than an employer/employee relationship in the U.S.

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Meaning what? That the ownership of one human being by another can, under certain circumstances, be moral? What circumstances would be necessary for moral slavery to exist? How is American slavery different from slavery in Paul's time?

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Any of the single ladies living here, and there's a dozen or so, could walk away today, and not one of them wants to.

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Well, I'm glad things are so nice there in Stepfo..., um, Selmer. You seem to have your women well-trained. Still, I'm sure there are other women who feel that teaching women and girls that they are inferior to men or boys simply because of their gender is immoral. There is no scientific basis for teaching this, only the rantings of barely-civilized men written thousands of years ago.

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You're welcome to call a submissive role for women immoral. I don't agree with you, a significant percentage of America doesn't agree with you, and I don't think I see anything in mainstream western society that lends much authority to its views on the matter.

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I realize that a significant percentage of Americans disagree with me. What's the point, might makes right? A significant portion of Americans supported slavery in 1860, that didn't make it right.

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I'm not sure that I'd agree that the 19th century version of slavery in India was immoral, although the caste system that it was a part of I agree is awful.

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Again, what's your point? Was Paul speaking of future slavery in India?

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I think what Lot did was awful.

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That's refreshing, but you were the one who said that when Paul spoke out against effeminacy he was really speaking about cowardice. I asked you why, if that was true, the bible is silent on the subject of Lot's cowardice. This isn't an answer.

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...people who agree that women should be allowed to speak in church might very well not agree that a man who didn't allow that speaking 2,000 years ago, in that society, was necessary immoral for going along with his society's attitudes in that area.

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If he was just going along with his society's attitudes, what is the point of his epistles? Wasn't he supposed to be telling us what God thinks of society? Why did he refuse to speak out on unjust practices and policies in that society?

Are you sure about that? There is nothing you can do that is unnatural?How do you feel about sheep? Dogs? Horses? and things that go bump in the night. You said, there is nothing you can do......etc.I didn't need to see that fist thing. Properly trained, you could drive a Sherman tank up someone's ass.

PecosGeorge responds to me:

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Are you sure about that? There is nothing you can do that is unnatural?

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Correct. There is nothing that I can do that is unnatural.Oh, it might be morally and ethically wrong, but that doesn't make it unnatural. Morals and ethics have nothing to do with nature.Nature is about what is physically possible. Morality and ethics are about what ought to be done.Nature tells you how to make an atom bomb. Morality and ethics tell you if you should.

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How do you feel about sheep? Dogs? Horses? and things that go bump in the night. You said, there is nothing you can do......etc.

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Well, things that go bump in the night don't exist, so that would be unnatural.As for bestiality, it isn't unnatural. It may be morally and ethically wrong (since animals cannot give consent), but that isn't the question. The question is if it is unnatural.If you can do it, then it is by definition "natural."Water that remains liquid at a temperature of -10C and 1 atm pressure is unnatural. It should have frozen.

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I didn't need to see that fist thing.

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I didn't show you anything. I merely told you that it is possible. If you wish, I can arrange a demonstration but if you really don't need to see it to know that it can be done without any side effects, then I'm willing to accept your acceptance that fisting is perfectly natural.

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Properly trained, you could drive a Sherman tank up someone's ass.

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No, you couldn't. To do that would require bones to break. Your pelvic opening does not expand that much.That said, if someone likes rubbing his butt up against his Sherman tank, you are you to tell him not to do it? Nobody is asking you to join in.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

To PecosGeorge:To is and you should be Do you feel ?To keep this post on topic, I will copy and paste what I wanted you to address: Patiently but enthusiastically awaiting your intelligent reply to post 210.This message has been edited by Sleeping Dragon, 06-16-2004 12:14 AM

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Ahh, but that isn't always entirely true is it? I don't know about you, but when I was younger it was not unheard of if I, or one of my buddies, was approached, unsolicited, and asked if we wanted to rub our butts up against some guy's Sherman.That was never a comfortable encounter as it always came as an unexpected non-sequiter and you were usually too shocked to do anything else but stammer "uh - er - no, I'm not into Shermans, man."No doubt these types of unwelcome encounters (also made famous recently by the likes of George Michael) provide ammunition to people who already find homosexuality distasteful or immoral. Something like this occurs and it serves to re-affirm what homophobes 'already know' about gays.The thing to remember though, is that most guys, regardless of sexual orientation, are pretty much horny scumbags; and these advances are probably no worse, on average, than those by heterosexual men toward women.This message has been edited by custard, 06-16-2004 03:39 AM