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Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Origins of the Judeo-Christian god and religion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
you seem to think that because you believe you it, it's absolute fact. but it's belief. it's faith. I've become impressed lately that the reason fundamental literalist are so adamant that science is wrong and that the Bible, flood and all is fact is because faith is very difficult for them (you can substitute whatever book of religion for Bible, such as Koran, Book of Mormon, etc). If it's fact it doesn't take faith. It's all you know, it's real and easy to believe. I won't say more as it moves off topic but it may not be possible for the positions to get any closer. At this point in the thread it may be as close as we are ever going to get. lfen
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I knew that you (or someone) would say that!
I can't convince you that it was an impartation and not an overactive imagination...no matter what I do! *sigh*! So be it, then. We are off topic anyway. The topic is based on human wisdom typre sources...so I defer......
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I'm only aware of one golden calf the other two were created by jeroboam, in the book of kings. one was at beth-el, and i forget off hand where the other one was.
and of course it was a perversion of the religion, it was a reversion to the old pagan mentality, and it is clearly repudiated as false, because the true God is not a created being. "reversion to the old pagan mentality." muslims hold the same thing to be true: god is not a created being. the earlier polytheists had perverted the truth, and muhammed straightened them out. you have failed to demonstrate why these arguments are valid for you, but not for them. because you believe the bible to be 100% accurate? that's faith, not fact. no matter how much you try, faith, religion is still faith.
You keep changing the subject. I am answering your accusations about Biblical religion, I am not addressing Islam, because you fail to see how the two relate. you don't see that you're arguing against yourself. you've set up a huge double standard -- their arguments are wrong, but mine are right. nevermind that we're saying the same thing.
and you keep coming back to this as if I think Islam were a polytheism. It is not and I never said it was. clearly, you think it is derived from polytheism. and clearly, the situation surrounding the birth of judaism is exactly the same.
I never SAID they worship the moon god. Good grief. Even if Allah DERIVED from the moon god I have NEVER said they NOW worship the moon god. so, is allah the moon god, or not? if he's not, then you have to accept that the earlier moon god was a separate tradition -- or that the statement that the polytheist moon god was a perversion of the truth is just as valid as your statement that the biblical idolators perverted yahweh.
Yahweh was never a member of a pantheon, and all you have offered in support of this is some words that have a similar sound in other languages. You are going to have to do better than this. *sigh* read the bible, faith. remember the book of job? yahweh gathers a council of ben-elohim? compare that to yah as a member of the iluhym in ugarit. it's a darned big coincidence, if you ask me. especially since ugarit is right next door. it's not like we're talking about people in australia here. these are people who interacted with the hebrews, and the akkadians/sumerians/babylonians/chaldees. they were a cultural center of the middle east. imagine you're a teacher, and your proctoring and exam. two students turn in essays that sound remarkably similar. the only difference is that one is full of typoes. the two students sat next together. are you gonna let them away with "just because they sound alike doesn't mean we cheated!" or are you going to fail them? be honest, here.
You are a FIRST YEAR HEBREW STUDENT and you have your nerve! second year.
What unbelievable arrogance. A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT Bible authorities explain the plural use of Elohim and I'm sure THEY know when the grammar warrants it. if they do, they're lying to you. it's not arrogance. i'm right, and any hebrew third grader would be able to tell you that. often the genders and rabim of nouns are deceptive -- but you can tell easily by the number and gender of the adjective or verb. in english, we conjugate verbs to their plural form when the subject looks plural. so we say stuff like "those scissors are sharp." really, there's only one scissors -- the word just looks plural. in hebrew, b'reishit bara elohim is the equivalent of saying "those scissors is sharp," only it makes perfect sense grammatically. we would know there's one scissors because of the verb. with elohim, we know when it's singular and when it's plural based on the verb and/or adjective. you really can't keep arguing this point. it's just based on your opinion of religious authority, whom i have clearly demonstrated are in fact wrong. i don't care if they have years mroe experience in bible study than me, evidently they know next to nothing about hebrew.
Words fail me. I am not a Hebrew student but Hebrew EXPERTS over the centuries disagree with you. maybe you should take some hebrew, then. and "hebrew experts?" what about the people who speak it? it's not exactly a dead language. but, hey, let's consult the experts:
You are quite a case, thinking you and you alone, with your few months of Hebrew, can judge the entire history of Biblical translation. let's look at the history of biblical translation, shall we? here's a good set of them:
quote: that's funny, i don't see one, singular, solitary plural "gods" in there anywhere. do you? have you ever seen a single translation that renders "elohim" as "gods" in the verse? can you find one, anywhere? even heretical bibles, and strange translations? no? that's because it's kindergarten hebrew grammar. the verb determines number and gender. i am not aware on any translation that has EVER rendered "elohim" as plural in this case, or any other where it refers to ha-shem. i'm sorry, faith, you lose. the history of biblical translation agrees with me: elohim, when used to describe yahweh, is always singular. what you're thinking of is interpretation. that's different. they see the singular usage of a plural-looking word to be evidence of the trinity (and/or other polytheistic beliefs). translation ≠ interpretation. be careful with interpretations: i can find you whole essays expounding on the shape of the letter yud. people read lots of fun stuff into the bible.
Why anyone should even have to answer to such adolescent arrogance is beyond me. But that's the democracy of the internet. it's not arrogance. you're wrong. deal with it. you trust these interpretations based on authority. you do not have enough skill in the language to tell they are wrong. i do and i don't even have that much skill (which i am the first to admit).
No it is not polytheism. Are you a Mormon? A Jehovah's Witness? They think it is polytheism. They are wrong. i'm a person with a brain in their skull. is jesus god? is yahweh god? is the holy spirit god? that's three gods. polytheism. that whole jesus = yahweh = the spirit is a bit, well, gnostic for my taste. it complicates the story. god sacrificed himself to himself to give us himself?
Where are you getting "watch over?" God has the tribes of Israel represent the nations and you are making this into something else that makes no sense. it's not my fault you can't follow this. you can't seem to follow the hebrew grammar argument, either. look, this is simple: the MOST HIGH god divides the nations.one son of el to a nation. israel's son of el is yahweh. that's more or less the definition of henotheism. henotheism is the stepping-stone from polytheism. it means that we accept other gods exist, but we only only worship ours.
Didn't I just say "all these other" gods? I understand there are millions of "gods." Hinduism alone has millions. do you believe they exist? even if they're evil, that's henotheism.
You are going to have to spell out your case better than this. I can't read your mind. You seem to think if you merely state a name it carries some complex meaning known only to you. for god's sake faith. god commands that the levites sacrifice a goat to another divine entity. you don't see that as a little bit weird? a little bit polytheist?
here's a good place to start: Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible I have no idea what that is supposed to prove. first, that "yah" is a very common way to refer to "yahweh."
No doubt they are reverting to a generic idol god. generic? a calf is pretty specific. why do they KEEP using a calf? what is special about a calf? what other traditions could possibly be influencing them to think of god as a calf? it's not like it's a calf one time, and a goat another time, and a mule another time. no, it's a calf, and only a calf that is called the god of abraham, isaac, and jacob.
So what? Historically that idol god had nothing to do with the revelation of the character of the true God it may have vaguely tried to represent. Historically Abraham did not take that idol and make it the center of a religion of his invention. But that is what Mohammed did. (And again, I am not saying that Islam is NOW a polytheism. Sheesh.) you keep saying "historically" instead of "i believe that..." islam holds the same thing you do. that allah is NOT that idol, but the revelation of the true character of god (who is aniconic).
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
I've become impressed lately that the reason fundamental literalist are so adamant that science is wrong and that the Bible, flood and all is fact is because faith is very difficult for them (you can substitute whatever book of religion for Bible, such as Koran, Book of Mormon, etc). If it's fact it doesn't take faith. It's all you know, it's real and easy to believe. i'm a bit rushed right now, so it's hard to find a good verse. but clearly faith is not something that is easy. but faith is something that is supposed to be beautiful. fact is boring, and sucks the life out of it. if we know something, does it matter what we believe? if our salvation is by faith, but we KNOW god exists, can we be saved? my own journey is a hard one. i doubt, and i question. and for this i am scorned by the christian community. they would rather isolate themselves, and limit faith as much as they can by telling themselves it's fact. stay away from the world, don't think, don't question. just follow. jesus said go out into the world. spread the news. he said, seek, and you will find. ask, and it shall be given. questioning, doubt, and FAITH are healthy. denial and isolation are not.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
All you have are words and you are trying to build some kind of history out of mere words, all out of your own imagination. The words show only the cultural context in which the concepts are being presented, religion is part of cultural context.
you cannot claim history from them. yet you claim history from the words of the bible.
Abraham did not pick up the idol El or Yah from the pantheon in Ur and make it into the one and only God. That is simply not what happened and you have no evidence whatever that anything of the sort happened. That such concepts existed in the culture nobody would dispute. That God Himself spoke to the people in concepts they were familiar with would only make sense. ok. ditto for islam. they claim the same thing. why are they wrong, and you right?
But Abraham did not originate his religion, God Himself did, and again, since this no doubt rubs unbelievers the wrong way simply to believe what the Bible reports about such a supernatural intervention in the affairs of human beings, and it seems to rub you the wrong way to simply believe the qu'ran, which makes the same claim of muhammed. they claim that muhammed did not create islam, but allah did.
there is NO historical evidence fixed.
Mohammed on the other hand did apparently historically factually designate the god Allah in the Meccan pantheon as the one true God and eliminated all the other gods. point me to the historical evidence, please.
crucial teachings of Islam contradict Biblical teachings, so that Allah cannot be the same God as Yahweh nevertheless. not under debate.
But I do not say Allah is the moon god and I do not say that Islam is polytheistic, despite this particular history. do you recognize that their claim to divine monotheistic revelation out of a polytheistic surrounding is every bit as valid as yours?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
That is an interesting parallel but you gloss over the differences. Abram and Paul heard from God Himself, Mohammed heard from an "angel" whoa whoa, wait a minute. paul hear from jesus. abram heard from god himself (although generally god speaks through angels in the old testament. you got lucky, abraham is a counter-example to that).
an angel who in fact contradicts what the Bible said, although it was the Bible in which we first hear of this angel, if he were in fact that same angel, so by that we know he wasn't. ...because you believe the bible to be accurate, and the qu'ran not.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
they are so anti-idolatry that entire arab countries rioted in the streets over the mere fact that someone drew a picture of muhammed.
Exodus 20:4, anyone?
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. my thoughts exactly.
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lfen Member (Idle past 4707 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
No you still don't get my point.
I could accept it wasn't your imagination. But we are still left with how you decide if it was a true impartation vs. a cunning facsimile by say, Satan? At the end of the day you chose from your wisdom whether or not to accept the impartation as truth or error, as sourced from God or the devil. As long as you are you can't get away from you. lfen
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You are right There is really no empirical or verifiable way to say.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
an angel who in fact contradicts what the Bible said, although it was the Bible in which we first hear of this angel, if he were in fact that same angel, so by that we know he wasn't.
...because you believe the bible to be accurate, and the qu'ran not. Let me put it this way. I don't care which one you believe, but you can't believe both. If you really believe that Islam is right and the Bible is corrupted fine. But Allah is not Jehovah no matter what you believe or I believe. ABE: Edited to change not the same religion to Allah is not Jehovah This message has been edited by Faith, 05-02-2006 06:18 PM
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
The Bible itself is the only historical record there is of the events it recounts. Extra-Biblical sources do not relate to these events. Much is made of this or that archaeological find to refute the Bible AS history, but there is nothing that directly refutes anything in it. I wonder why that is...... We already know that some events in the bible simply did not occur (the flood) or probably did not occur (exodus). Humanity existed before the bible and we have evidence/records/etc. of cultures that pre-date the bible significantly. So there was a point in human civilization where judaism simply did not exist and no one worshipped that particular god(s). The interest here is how did they evolve their concept of god and where did it come from? How did they come to hold their beliefs? We have some of the pieces, but you are right that there aren't a ton of written records from that era.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
Arach,
I just wanted to thank you for some really interesting additions to this thread. I am really learning a lot from some of your posts. It makes me wonder how much interpretation (as opposed to translation) has been done to the bible over the years. I have always wondered how the jews came to their beliefs and what they believed before the bible appeared, etc. I'm starting to see some of the pieces fall into place here.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Humanity existed before the bible and we have evidence/records/etc. of cultures that pre-date the bible significantly. So there was a point in human civilization where judaism simply did not exist and no one worshipped that particular god(s). And the Bible records that fact and traces the genealogies of many of the pre-existing tribes from Adam and then from Noah. However, while before Abraham they did not use the name Yahweh,* there is only one true God, and according to the Bible the one true God was still worshipped in fits and starts from Adam on until finally polytheism pretty much eclipsed the knowledge of the true God. The calling of Abraham was a new start back to the worship of the true God.
The interest here is how did they evolve their concept of god and where did it come from? How did they come to hold their beliefs? The Bible says clearly that their beliefs did not evolve or come from anything previous, it all started with God's own personal calling of a man of His choosing to carry the truth and be the father of a people who would carry the truth (and we ASSUME that the cultural context of the time and place influenced the terms used to describe it all and that Abraham was not devoid of cultural and linguistic reference points by which to understand and describe his experiences of God's speaking to him). Of course this Biblical account can't be accepted by an anti-supernaturalist. The way you set up the problem, the Bible will be held in doubt a priori because of its supernaturalism, while anything that archaeology has to say will be treated as far more persuasive even if it's very scanty pickings and all a matter of interpretation. Right? ABE: * Apparently this was wrong. Arach showed that God was known by that name early in Genesis, well before God gave it to Moses. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-02-2006 09:45 PM
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CK Member (Idle past 4157 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
I'm going to give you the answer you are going to get:
We already know that some events in the bible simply did not occur (the flood) The flood did occur it is in the bible, the reason you think it did not occur is due to errors by atheist scientists.
probably did not occur (exodus). Yes it happened - it's mentioned in the bible. (and repeat...) (This is why those sort of dicussion need not to mention the bible expect for references where various bits of it came from). Here's a question - when is the earliest non-bible account of the christian god?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1373 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Let me put it this way. I don't care which one you believe, but you can't believe both. If you really believe that Islam is right and the Bible is corrupted fine. But Allah is not Jehovah no matter what you believe or I believe. that is not under debate in this thread.
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