Origins of the Judeo-Christian god and religion

Only insofar as we are willing to miss the woods for the intellectual trees. There is no reason to suppose that a person 2000 years ago was any less intelligent, sensitive, open to wonder, etc. - than we are now.Supposing they could, for a moment, be rid of baggage of their age: be it Sun worship or Science worship, I would suggest that nature is perfectly scrutable. Simple, uninformed observation would but conclude one thing. And it this: nature evokes wonder in the person who stills for a moment the cacaphony inside which screams at them to attempt to explain it ALL. To be like God in other words

One question Iano. Did nature lead you to believe in God before you heard His call?

you have already been shown in the other thread where the qu'ran claims that allah is not the sun, the moon, the stars, or any idol. what's even funnier, of course, is that the qu'ran makes YOUR point:

quote:

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[14.35] And when Ibrahim said: My Lord! make this city secure, and save me and my sons from worshipping idols:

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it may not be in the bible -- but it's the qu'ran. except for islam, which includes the calling of abraham, specifically.

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nothing. just making sure. you're the one that keeps bringin up objections, and strange ways to frame it so it looks like a different picture. but clearly, something similar happened in the early parts of genesis?

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Fragments of nature did fragments of the work. The same kind of thing that Robin talked of concerning his lighthousekeeper(sic) days. Gazing at stars and vast seas and the overflowing abundance of life when scuba diving, made me feel...uncomfortable.It confronted me with the fleeting (for I wouldn't face it for very long before escaping stage left) sense of my own insignificance. Which was immediately countered by the fact I knew I was...significant. Robins nihilism wasn't an option for some reason - I chose other escapes.The silent majesty of nature telling me one thing. Little old me telling me another. Coming to realise that I was right made me realise the actual story the silent majesty of nature was telling me. "You are more significant than all this"Overwhelming underestimation of my significance is what nature showed me. But to answer your question: Nature? Not a central movement in this particular symphony.

Iano, you are supporting my point then. Nature alone does not lead us to God. Making you feel insignificant didn't lead you to God. The topic (off topic actually) is whether nature convinces us of God or not, despite the fact that scripture says we are without excuse if we don't see God in nature, and despite the fact that some like to insist God is so legibly written in Nature nobody could miss Him. In my experience the vast majority of people do in fact not recognize His handiwork in Nature. Monotheism is relatively new after all on the world stage. The world for the most part has worshiped idols, not the Creator God, and in the last century or so atheism seems more popular for great numbers. We have to eliminate believers in any religion because the question is whether raw nature without revelation teaches God to anybody or not.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 07:20 PM

Faith is irrelevant and I'm not dismissing any scholarship supported by evidence.

This is beginning to break down into meaninglessness in my mind, but it's your term PANTHEON I keep objecting to, {abe: and your claims to some kind of SPECIFICITY about the influence of a particular god, for which there is no evidence at all.} That suggests something organized and localized, as it was at Mecca in Mohammed's time. Why do you insist on that term? Certainly idols or "gods" sprang up as a consequence of the Fall (plus the interest of the demonic hordes in capitalizing on humanity's vulnerability), perhaps many of them at first intended to represent the Creator God -- but there's no reason to think of this occurring in anything but a local and haphazard fashion for long periods.Your Jeremiah quote certainly then confirmed that idol worship was going on pre-Flood, so I'm glad that got supported as I figured it had to be so -- it follows from all the indicators I listed in that post a while back -- some of which you took issue with but they stand as demonstrating idol worship or polytheism from Adam on anyway.I don't know if that clears anything up or not.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 07:23 PMThis message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 07:24 PM

I read people talking of 'ancient, ignorant' people coming up with the idea of god simply because a lightening strike killed their cow and I have to wonder. How would one (in any age) make such a leap. Too much exposure to too many movies depicting the idea I suppose.There isn't enough information in nature alone to arrive at the conclusion "God". One would need a missing link in order to make the link (not that that has deterred our proto-feathered friends)I think nature has two functions: an "I was blind" irritational-yet-unavoidable function and a "but now I see" (as described in my last post) confirmational function. Call nature repeated left jabs and "the law is a schoolteacher to lead you to Christ" as the knock out punch. That's how it was for me so its the only one I can comment on. Nature impinges on the man-external interface. The law making you realise you're dirt, works from within. The latter by far the least escapable of the two. I can but say "not".This message has been edited by iano, 05-May-2006 12:28 AM

actually, pantheon is anything but specific. pan-all theos-god. so a pantheon is "all the gods."i'm using it considerably more loosely than that. i never contended anything different. joshua. from ADAM on? that's gonna need some justification.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 05-04-2006 07:26 PM

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Archaeological evidence requires lots of interpretation. There's not much that is absolute about any of it, since it deals with the prehistoric past and there is no way to dig up every square inch of the planet to confirm a particular speculation.

What do you think "pre-Flood" means?Joshua, right. Sorry.The problem with "all the gods" is that they were no doubt being invented all the time, there is no set number or set identity for them. They can change at whim because they aren't real, they are counterfeits, either made up by human beings or insinuated by demons who are the object of their worship. Again, pantheon suggests something far more established and settled. Anyway that's part of why I've been having trouble with the word.The other part is that you have insisted that a particular god you happen to know existed in some place and time WAS worshiped by Abraham or the Jews or whoever, when you have no way to know that and it is possible that Abraham was a true worshiper of the true God all his life. Scripture doesn't say but it is quite possible despite the fact that much of his family possessed household gods.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 07:32 PM

Some evidence will require interpretation, can't argue there...There are MANY written histories that predate the bible by quite a bit. So you are way off base clamining this part of the past is prehistoric.You might want to check out the history of writing:History of Writing

I don't need a refresher course in the history of writing.Unless things have changed since I read about it, there is no history of any people anywhere near like that of the Israelites until much more recent times. Writing tended to be used for the practical matters of running a kingdom, its financial operations and the like.This message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 07:41 PM

you were given the impression that it was a gradual process of slowly becoming more and more lost. if adam himself started worshipping other gods, that's something a little different... well, even true pantheons are rarely all-inclusive -- just for that region. but i did not mean something that organized, neccessarily. use whatever word you like. again, there is nothing to say one way or the other. if you find something, let me know. ...but the koran does! kind of unlikely, imo.

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