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Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Origins of the Judeo-Christian god and religion | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
you were given the impression that it was a gradual process of slowly becoming more and more lost. if adam himself started worshipping other gods, that's something a little different... I think we must speak two different languages, that's the problem. No, I didn't mean to say that Adam worshipped false gods. Certainly none of the godly line from Seth worshipped false gods. I merely meant that idol worship no doubt sprang up soon after the Fall, among some segments of the population, and that it progressed over time, yes.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
When Does Jewish History Begin? Only after the Babylonian Exile does the Word "Jew" begin to appear in Jewish books. Jew = Judean. Three major Issues: * God* Temple * Torah Were Israelites Monotheists?Accordng to Nevi'im, the answer is no. The Israelites, like everyone else, seemed to worshp the Pantheon, with Hashem as the "Father of the Gods". In other words, they were henotheist - considering one god to be first, but accepting the existence of one major deity. In this, the concept of a national deity is spawned.Still, there were indivual monotheists, also considered purists. So...What about public worship?Well, there was no public worship of of the Pantheon, or even public worship of minor gods..there was just the practice of worshipping the Israelite god, as to keep the purity of worship in check. In other words, public worship = monotheistic. from: http://www.tparents.org/.../OTA/OTA-Other/Israel-History.htm I'll have to look for corroboration, but according to this guy the history of the jews really begins around 550 BCE
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Go to Tparents.com at the bottom of the page and you'll find that site is maintained by the Moonies, not known for their accurate scholarship. I thought it would turn out to be a Mormon site by the sound of it. Cults do have a similar sound to them.
The Jews themselves trace their history back to Abraham, it really doesn't matter when the term Jews came into use. They identify with the terms Hebrews and Israelites just as much. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 07:57 PM
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
The information actually comes from here:
Jewish Theological Seminary - Inspiring the Jewish World Faith, you do realize that you are also a member of a cult I hope. I am searching for more information in any case.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is no way the Israelites can be properly called henotheists, since that would imply it was the accepted mode of worship by the community, but it is condemned by their own prophets and that is recorded in their scriptures. Wherever the worship of idols was added to the worship of Yahweh that was counted as a transgression. Much of the Old Testament is about this very thing, the continual reversion to idolatry and the callings back to the true worship of the true God and finally the warnings of punishment to come and then the punishment.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The information actually comes from here: Jewish Theological Seminary - Inspiring the Jewish World Can't find it at that site.
Faith, you do realize that you are also a member of a cult I hope. Not according to anyone who knows what they are talking about.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is no way the Israelites can be properly called henotheists, ... But that is exactly what the Bible portrays. As I have pointed out to you several times the story of Naaman is a clear indication of exactly that, and it is just one of a continuing picture throughout most of the Old Testament. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
This isn't all on topic, but some of it is and provides a good starting point.
From http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Minimalism.htm
The mainstream view of critical biblical scholarship accepts that Genesis-Joshua (perhaps Judges) is substantially devoid of reliable history and that it was in the Persian period that the bulk of Hebrew Bible literature was either composed or achieved its canonical shape. For that reason I am not satisfied merely to conclude (as is that minimalist Dever, for instance) that the stories of Genesis to Joshua are unhistorical. I also want understand what the stories mean to communicate and why. To discover what the biblical writers knew is both impossible and misguided; the question of one untrained in the interpretation of ancient texts and bound to literality as the only criterion of validity remains. What the writers said and meant, who they were, who were their audience, and why they said what they did: these are questions for biblical critics of a historical bent. My reasons for thinking that most of the biblical writings were composed in the Persian period by urban intellectuals are manifold. Essentially, I ask what motives the writers might have had for compiling, in stages, an epic history that went back to creation, for inventing a twelve-tribe nation that escaped from Egypt and annihilated the Canaanites, generated several portraits of an ideal society set in a mythical wilderness scenario, developed an aniconic monotheistic religion and assigned it to antiquity, and so on (for the arguments in more detail, see Davies 2001). These are the types of ideas I'm interested in. Where/why things in the bible came from since we know that not all of it is historically accurate.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It is not henotheism if it is warned against and punished to worship any other gods than Yahweh.
Naaman asked pardon for going through the motions of worship of an idol in the service of his Syrian master who worshiped that idol. Asking pardon proves this is not henotheism, as he would not have considered it necessary to ask pardon for something he considered to be right. 2Ki 5:18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, [that] when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 08:25 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That is the direction I expected this thread to go in from the beginning -- into modern critical scholarship that denies the inspired nature of the scriptures and imputes it all to human work. You may get Brian and Arach and a few others to join in, but their premises conflict with mine so I should probably consider my contribution here finished unless posts continue to be addressed to me.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It is not henotheism if it is warned against and punished to worship any other gods than Yahweh. No, that's incorrect. Under henotheism it doesn'tr matter if the other God's are warned against. YHWH is the God of the Hebrews, of Israel, but other Gods were recognized as the Gods of other Nations and peoples. But in the case of Naaman even that is immaterial. When Naaman is about to return home after being cured, he asks for some of the soil to take with him so that he can worship YHWH on YHWH's soil. That's because YHWH was the God of Israel and would be powerless on the soil of his homeland. He's given the soil to take back with him. He goes even further though and asks forgiveness when he goes with his master to worship his masters God's and bows down to them. And that too is granted. From 2 Kings 5:
17 "If you will not," said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. 18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also”when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this." 19 "Go in peace," Elisha said. Henotheism is simply the recognition that there are other Gods. Naaman, once he had accepted YHWH was constrained by the rules of the YHWHists. That does not say that the other Gods were not real, seen as real and real Gods of their peoples and territories. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5863 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
That is the direction I expected this thread to go in from the beginning -- into modern critical scholarship that denies the inspired nature of the scriptures and imputes it all to human work. You may get Brian and Arach and a few others to join in, but their premises conflict with mine so I should probably consider my contribution here finished unless posts continue to be addressed to me. Thanks Faith. I appreciate the contributions. I'm not denying the inspired nature of the scriptures (even though that's what I believe). It's just that much of the bible is simply parables and not history. And we know a lot of this for a fact (i.e. no flood etc). This doesn't mean that the bible wasn't divinely inspired though. Maybe god likes to teach in parables. Who knows?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No, that's incorrect. Under henotheism it doesn'tr matter if the other God's are warned against. YHWH is the God of the Hebrews, of Israel, but other Gods were recognized as the Gods of other Nations and peoples. Well, that implies an official recognition of them as true Gods, a legitimizing of them. Israel never officially did that, only fell into it as a lapse from proper worship of their own God.
But in the case of Naaman even that is immaterial. When Naaman is about to return home after being cured, he asks for some of the soil to take with him so that he can worship YHWH on YHWH's soil. That's because YHWH was the God of Israel and would be powerless on the soil of his homeland. He's given the soil to take back with him. The Promised Land is considered holy by some even today, as the land where the God of all Gods Himself chose to plant His temple. Naaman knew who the God of Israel really was, THE God of Gods. If there was any spiritual purpose in taking the soil, it was probably to let Rimmon know he belonged to Yahweh, not to him. This message has been edited by Faith, 05-04-2006 09:36 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Well, that implies an official recognition of them as true Gods, a legitimizing of them. They were the Gods of others, but not the God of Israel. That's pretty common throughout the Bible.
The Promised Land is considered holy by some even today, as the land where the God of all Gods Himself chose to plant His temple. Naaman knew who the God of Israel really was, THE God of Gods. If there was any spiritual purpose in taking the soil, it was probably to let Rimmon know he belonged to Yahweh, not to him. Nice try, but that isn't why he took it. It was because YHWH had power over the territories of Isreal. If he was on Rimmon's territory Rimmon might well be more powerful. That's why the Philistines took the Ark. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
you are misunderstanding what henotheism is. it does not include the worship of other deities, simply the knowledge that other gods may exist but you only worship yours. this is very obvious in the treatment of god as a regional deity (see the movement of israeli soil in order to worship god in a foreign land) in parts of the old testament. the biggest point here is that judaism is an evolving religion like all evolving religions. it began polytheistic then ditched the rest. it's very simple really.
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