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Author Topic:   What are you? EvC poll
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 87 of 126 (316802)
06-01-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by 1.61803
04-24-2006 10:06 PM


How do we know 'what to be' when by deciding, we imply dualism either way ???
Unity of all vs. Separation of good and evil
By Robert S. Lockett
Genesis 1: 3-4 And God said, "Let there be light." And there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness...
It has long been known that the quantum realm reveals the possibilities, or duality of light in relationship to the observer (specifically the Niels Bohr interpretation). This denotes the observer’s ability to affect reality. I think it is a very interesting point, and believe that in as much as I am aware (I’m admittedly not as well read as some), that Christians have failed to consider it carefully enough. Bohr’s observations are a reasonable proof that we certainly do affect reality, and in some minds quantum potential suggests that we create it. Personally I do not suppose that manipulation is equal to creation. Either way, as the philosophically sound cliché says; ”no man is an island’.
I am going to keep this as simple as I am able and apologize for covering any sophomoric ground, but let us explore the implications by first recognizing that a photon exists both as a wave and a particle. However, once observed, a photon can no longer be both a particle and wave and looses it's 'duality', in one sense, becoming 'real' in relationship to the observer. This either / or relationship bears a striking resemblance to the either / or relationship in the fundamental principle of what is known as Aristotelian logic. What I would like to focus on is that in the same way, ”truth’, once observed and therefore affirmed, becomes real in relationship to the observer. As a result, the alternative potential or potentials are excluded.
I would like to assert that if we choose to observe these entities, we cannot have it both ways, either in the case of light in the physical sense, or logic (light in the metaphysical sense). If we choose to observe reality, be it physical or metaphysical, we will inherit the consequences of that decision. The consequences of manipulating physical light do not contain any discernable tragic ramifications. On the other hand, the consequences of observing truth as a light and thereby defining ”reality’ in the metaphysical realm carries some enormous implications for all of mankind. In the metaphysical sense, if we conform to reality as it is, we will by definition get the 'objective' reality. One of my assumptions is that the original purpose or design, the ”objective reality’, is what we are all seeking ( any contest to this assumption is for another discussion). We may only differ on 'the way' to get there. In any case, every assumption of justice or morality; and every affirmation of truth necessarily implies an objective reality and therefore an absolute reality. If we make absolute statements such as, ”all is one’, ”there are no absolutes’, ”truth is relative’ , or ”I am the truth’ (notice the affirming words ”is’, ”are’, and ”am’) without the knowledge that we are in fact making an absolute statement, then as G.K. Chesterton noted, we are undermining our own mind.
When one ponders the concept of 'truth' from an ambivalent vantage point, it seems the possibilities defy observation, for once observed and affirmed, the realm of possibilities is then reduced to mere perspective. Or is it? It is true that once truth is affirmed, the observer excludes it’s opposite, effectively closing the door on other alternatives. Let there be no deception that the decisive metaphysical observer is 'all inclusive' in his/her affirmation. However, just because every affirmation excludes its opposite, this does not mean that such a conclusion is always subjective. For example, 1+1 only equals 2. Once we use reason to establish that objective and universal reality, we have ourselves conformed to reality and have moved beyond open mindedness, yet we remain objective. For the record, I do not mean by moving beyond open-mindedness, that we cease to question a challenge to our reasonable conclusion. The question is really whether or not the challenge is reasonable. We should always be willing to entertain a question, if not questioning ourselves tortuously.
On the Monistic theme, if we choose to believe that we are God, we should not deceive ourselves that we have remained open-minded. Open-mindedness would not allow such a conclusion. This works as well with any affirmation that we are not God. Neither worldview can ultimately claim an unbiased vantage point. They are both fundamentalist positions and must exclude their opposite. As stated in the last paragraph, this does not necessarily mean that we are being subjective. Open-mindedness and objectivity are two distinct entities even though they do overlap at times. Objectivity and open-mindedness will lead to the conclusion that 1+1=2, but once affirmed we are rightly no longer open-minded and move forward with the ”objective’ of finding more of reality. It is a logical necessity to reject the alternative answers such as 1+1=3. The practical implication is that the truth (the objective) precedes us, and we must conform to it. At the beginning of our journey, objectivity and open-mindedness overlap. Once the objective is reached, all opposites are excluded.
Jesus claimed to be the wholeness of absolute reality and promised that if we give up our own subjective and relative ”realities’, we could exchange them for the ”absolute’ and ”objective’ reality. Mathew 10: 39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." John 14: 6 'I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the father except through me.'
It occurs to me that the will of the individual is given enormous latitude and power to interpret the duality of the information and make an affirmation. Another way to put it is that the observer is faced with an enormous test of his heart. It does appear that this test is of the observer’s deepest intentions. It is inevitable that ”truth’ is defined within the heart of the observer. The observer may perceive reality in any fashion he/she chooses (2+2=9), but to be certain, creating reality would involve more than believing he/she has the power to do so by shear will and subjection. One must be able to explain (logically show, or ”shed light’ on) why they believe that what may only begin in the heart, is indeed the objective reality. If the heart and mind do not converge into a coherent fabric, then he/she must attempt to achieve the presumed end in spite of reason. I assume we all believe that the end does not justify the means.
Assuming the power to create reality ultimately involves changing the cosmological constants and laws of physics. In the very least, such power should demonstrate mastery over them by essentially manifesting God Himself. Jesus is reliably documented to have done just this when He demonstrated the miraculous and these feats ended with the grandest of all conceivable miracles when He ultimately rose from the dead. If we are God (as some claim), then it is true that we should lay hold of our destiny even without the ability to reasonably explain our position and vigorously pursue our ends. If we are not God, then we are underestimating the consequences of our actions in the most dangerous and subjective fashion. We should have no ambivalence about making or denying such an utterly profound affirmation. Jesus made it plain when He said, "I came into this world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me" (John 18:37-38) His bold affirmation makes a black and white claim that if we are honest in our hearts, we will listen to Him and that our search is inevitably found in Him. The Bible says that in Him, all of reality consists. Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
To be more specific, when contemplating the nature of divinity, only two possibilities exist. One of these is the possibility that ”all is one’, the classic pantheist philosophy of monism in which we and all of creation are God (Hinduism, Buddhism, New Age, etc.). The other is a very different divinity in the form of the Biblical all powerful and infinite God and His sovereignty over all his creatures and creation. One view defines man as divine, and the other acknowledges a separation from divinity as a result of man seeking divine power for himself (pride/ego). The attitude of the observer to the either / or decision in this regard, most assuredly hinges on the moral implications of the two views.
They are not compatible. Notice that the monistic worldview exists to separate itself from the ”narrow’ Christian orthodoxy, whereas the Christian exists to unite Himself with God within the narrow framework of truth. For the 'monistic' worldview to survive, they will inevitably have to argue against a part 'of the all' (Christians) who disagree. This is self defeating and exposes a contradiction in their presupposition that 'all is one'. The Christian is consistent, acknowledging the necessity of exclusivity in the nature of an objective reality. Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
It is a difficult concept to differentiate by any measure. It is like an optical illusion that shifts perspective as we look longer at its qualities. The temptations of Monism are intense and easy to believe; yet, the veracity and logic of Dualism demands consideration by the honest thinker because of its overwhelming conviction and the shear power of its coherence.
It is interesting that the classical concept of ”free will’, in the Biblical sense, is confirmed by the discovery of potential in quantum physics. As a follower of Christ, my observation of this connection is given as a means of illustrating the incredible coherence of a Biblical worldview. It is my opinion that such a connection is no mere coincidence. It is simply true. Conscious free will + potential = God given dignity. Have it your way or God's way. God does not impose Himself on us. For Him to do so would make Him a fascist. He would have to create a perfect world containing nothing but unthinking, uncaring, yet undeniably perfect nonliving robots. In a Monistic reality, we would have no power at all and would only do what is inevitable by evolution, chance and necessity. Ironically, it is the Monist that claims to create reality, which is the most powerful position one could have.
Truth remains undefined and unobserved until the potential observer makes a conscious decision to seek and observe it. Not seeking truth is inevitably a conscious decision as well. In this arena, remaining open-minded is really a decision to not make a decision and is therefore illogical. In regard to the two contradictory views of divinity, once defined by an act of the will, the implications of the affirmation into reality (even if only subjective) become immediate and apparent. One can choose to believe all is well and thereby attempt to keep his life by subjectively interpreting it as ”part of the evolving all’, or conform to the implication of his separation from divinity by seeking the help of the divine in order to become a person in the objective reality.
We are manipulating reality in a sense, as the quantum sciences prove, or rather, making real by way of consequences in the material, our decision to observe reality the way we choose. One should not confuse the reality that is perceived within, thereby confined to perception, with the reality that exists before and after the observer exists. Individually, we are not the only observers. Self can only define reality by the self’s DNA and experience (heart). But by the rejection of self and a repositioning into relationship with the divine, one can experience a new birth that transcends DNA and experience (subjection). Only the latter allows the self to exist in both states; as an individual (' I '), in relationship with the divine who is also a distinct being. Though some suggest that to call ones self ' I ' is an egoist response to the dilemma, it is interesting to note, that this negative (black and white) view is held as a way of avoiding conformity for the sake of the divine, and maintains the ego. It is the acknowledgement of the ' I ' that reveals the individuals responsibility to the whole and recognizes the power to alter reality. This sheds light on the need for individual rehabilitation if one is out of sorts with the objective (reality).
Stating fact or arguing with reason is not, by any means, necessarily egoic or fear based in nature. However, the denial of fact, or the inability to accept a reasonable and logical argument is always motivated by ego and fear. Some claims demand serious attention because the implications are so inescapably enormous.
That being said, the most offensive thing anyone could say to the fear and ego driven heart is, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
That is the ultimate, staggering, and exclusive claim to sovereignty. It is also a completely reasonable statement. Even so, such a statement is either motivated by the purest form of ego, and/or, it intends to manipulate by the most blatant use of fear, or such a statement is the most selfless expression and profound truth that any man will ever hear. It is a claim that only God can make consistently.
I believe that is precisely why C.S. Lewis wrote the following:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ”I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic”on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg”or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” *
The monistic worldview is nothing more than an attempt to escape from individual responsibility and the only way to maintain such a position consistently, albeit an obstinate and rebellious posture, is to declare 'one’s self' as God. For most monists, it is far less confrontational to speak without such clarity. They like to avoid the necessity and inevitability of the conflict. The monist prefers to say that we are evolving into the divine. But by implication this is a theology of default divinity be it evolving or not. As in the disagreement over Jesus Christ’s claims, this claim is either the greatest blasphemy, or the greatest truth. The stakes are enormous.
Since much of the quantum’s incredible properties involve light and the difficulty of putting a finger on its true nature, it is exceptionally noteworthy that Jesus said the following: 'I am the light of the world' (John 9; 5) ”I have come into the world as a light’ (John 12; 46). ”This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God (John 3; 19).
Monism can explain our unity but not our diversity. Evolution can explain our diversity but not our unity. We seek unity in diversity (University, Quintessence, E Pluribus Unum), and the only way to have unity in diversity in the effect (creation) is to have unity in diversity in the first cause (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Only Christianity offers that. **
The Creator, the triune God, is a being that is also an eternal relationship. He is one though making up three distinct forms of Himself. With God’s plan, we are allowed to become sons of God, by denying ourselves as God, and accepting the wisdom of the only God. It is there that we awake and begin to understand the hymnist when he wrote, “I once was lost, but now I’m found, was blind, but now I see”.
According to Christ, there is unity in Him and Him alone. All is not unity, only that which is in Christ. Christ forces us to either accept Him, or reject Him. If we accept, then that begins with careful consideration of his words and their implications. He did not ask us to jump in blindly. Rather He warns us to weigh the issue with intensity and actually seems to attempt to talk us out of following Him by making it so clear. Luke 14: 27-33 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. "Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.' "Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple. "Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
If we reject Him, the only alternative is for man to claim himself and all of his conflicting and chaotic ambitions to be his and his life alone. Either Jesus is God, or we are. Matthew 12; 30 " He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me, scatters abroad." A monist cannot say this either because there is no ”against’, there are only different sides of the same one, and therefore Jesus was not a monist.
Look at the following verse and see how Jesus describes the Spirit that created all things coming to make His home in the heart of a mortal, thereby making known to him the immortal and eternal God. This is the 'real', personal, and daily relationship with divinity (Christ). John 14; 23 "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My words; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
He often expands on the depth of the spiritual rebirth and further confirms the differential between powers and perceptions. John 14;17-20 " The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. A little while longer and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. At that day you will know that I Am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."
The monist proclaims that we cannot 'know' that these things are true lest we risk being controlled by the ego (because all is individually subjective); but, if you did not notice in these verses before, see that Jesus proclaims that ”you will know, or see’. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8; 32) It is just the same way as mentioned in the beginning of this article, that we may close our minds to alternatives while remaining objective, since what we have found is the objective reality.
The monist is forced to accept all that is as part of the evolving divine oneness. This allows them to see themselves as divine yet in a state not yet fully realized (and keep their sin without the internal conflict). Genesis 3; 5 Then Satan said, "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God . "
Only God can be God by logical necessity, even if we disagree as to who He is. That is one reason I put my life and faith in Jesus Christ, for He spoke plainly and in truth. Even the monist knows and is forced to say that God is one, they just misunderstand the implications of their philosophy. Many of them do so intentionally, constantly seeking to find a way out of the inevitable trap of logic.
Mark 12: 28-34 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: ”Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ”Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these." "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Christ spoke no doubletalk about being all inclusive. We cannot have it both ways. 1+1 cannot = both 2 and 3 and 5 and 8 etc. To attempt such is to eat the fruit of ”the tree of knowledge of good and evil’. Jesus said, ”Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division’ (Luke 12:51). A monist cannot say this for their concept of deity only works to unite. The truth always divides and separates reality from subjection, which is why Monism cannot be true.
John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.
Acts 23:7 When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.
Psalm 78:13 He divided the sea and led them through; he made the water stand firm like a wall.
Matthew 25: 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
John 8:43-45 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
In conclusion, I wish to point out that in the Biblical sense, Jesus was most assuredly not a monist. Now, many claim and make an interesting point now and then that Jesus’ words were manipulated and mistranslated. I disagree, for no texts have been protected like the Cannon of scripture. I believe that He did in fact say all of these outrageous and incredible things. It is why He was crucified and tortured more than any man who ever lived. You can believe all you want that He was a monist. You can even believe that he was a form of both. I am not the type who will tell you what you should believe. I think the evidence speaks for itself. I suppose I can agree with any philosopher that Jesus was a dualist, but more importantly, that He is God. He is good, and evil is evil. That is either true, or it isn’t. But we can’t have it both ways because in the very beginning God said, "Let there be light." And there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness (Genesis 1: 3-4)
* [CS Lewis, 'Mere Christianity']
** [Ravi Zacharius / Difficult Questions. Thoughtful Answers. | RZIM]

Doing the best I can with what I have at the moment...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 1.61803, posted 04-24-2006 10:06 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 89 of 126 (316829)
06-01-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Rob
06-01-2006 9:33 AM


Re: How do we know 'what to be' when by deciding, we imply dualism either way ???
"it doesn't appear to be connected to the topic of this discussion (a worse crime than length)."
Appearences can be deceiving. Let your yes be yes and your no be no...
"If you have a point to make you'll do better if you consider who your audience might be and give consideration to what will work for them."
What will work for them? What does that mean? That I should preach to the choir. Would you then accuse me of playing cheerleader to the band?
...philosophy is either eternal or it is not philosophy. The modern habit of saying"This is my opinion, but I may be wrong" is entirely irrational. If I say that it may be wrong, I say that is not my opinion. The modern habit of saying "Every man has a different philosophy; this is my philosophy and it suits me" - the habit of saying this is mere weak-mindedness. A cosmic philosophy is not constructed to fit a man; a cosmic philosophy is constructed to fit a cosmos. A man can no more possess a private religion than he can possess a private sun and moon. -G.K. Chesterton 'introduction to the book of Job'-
Perhaps a contrary view is not welcome in this forum. That is your problem not mine. I don't censure the opposition. I am sorry about the length and understand, but such issues are weightier than most would like to know, and they prefer to simply play with fire and pretend it's a toy.
I simpy had to respond to your post, but will defer further discussion to those who are able to handle a challenge to their assumptions. Good luck with 'your reality'. I hope you like it...
Rob

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 100 of 126 (316984)
06-02-2006 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by AdminPhat
05-05-2006 4:10 PM


Re: He is the original I AM, we're derivative i am's
I wish to apologize for any confusion. The definition of 'dualism' is more complicated than many realize. In that light, I suppose my post was not on topic, though it is...
dualism
n : the doctrine that reality consists of two basic opposing elements, often taken to be mind and matter (or mind and body), or good and evil (Dictionary.com-WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University)
My post is relating to 'monism' in the 'pantheist-monistic sense'. I am still learning about the terminology myself, so perhaps the post is confusing, because I am still learning what it is I am saying. I assumed that the audience here understood these things even better than I.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 103 of 126 (317115)
06-02-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Larni
06-01-2006 11:35 AM


If you believe in only energy and matter, then how do you explain the origin of information? Information is a massless quantity. It is not reducible to matter or energy. So how can any materialist or naturalist philosophy explain it's origin? (Question from Steven Myers - Discovery Institute)

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 105 of 126 (317123)
06-02-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by nwr
06-02-2006 11:04 PM


Information is an abstraction???
Would you say that your comment (information is an abstraction), is 'informative' in any meaningful sense??? Personally, I find it meaningful, because it was not intended to be, nor was it 'abstract'; though it is [information]. The question really is... is your statement true?
It is false, because it contradicts itself. By your own admission, your comment is nothing more than an abstraction...
If everything is only perception, then that conclusion is also only a perception and is not true.
You would do better to explain why Steven Meyer is wrong, then to simply state that he is unreliable. This you cannot do, because Mr. Meyers is correct. If he is not, please explain...
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by nwr, posted 06-02-2006 11:04 PM nwr has replied

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 109 of 126 (317130)
06-03-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by nwr
06-02-2006 11:56 PM


This is going to be a blast!
We invented this abstraction for our convenience in talking about communication. There isn't anything mystical or magical about it.
I see! So you are saying that information comes from an intelligent source. I agree! Intelligent agents manipulate matter and energy into a recognizable pattern of (complex/specified/non-periodic/meaningful text).
You would do better to explain why Steven Meyer is wrong, ...
I have just done so above. I have explained the origin of information, while Meyer apparently thinks that it cannot be explained.
That is incorrect... Mr. Meyers makes exactly the same point you made. That information is created by intelligence!
Your the one who doesn't believe in 'intelligent design' remember???
That is why I said you contradict yourself, and you keep doing it because you are using logic to deny logic, and if you want to deny logic, you might as well talk about a one-ended stick.
-Mathematician, meet -Truck Driver
With all due respect, Rob
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Any biters in the stream?

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 110 of 126 (317131)
06-03-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by crashfrog
06-03-2006 12:08 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
Yes, your right Crashfrog, but only partially... I am taking his statement to it's foundation. That is all...
Rob

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 112 of 126 (317136)
06-03-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by crashfrog
06-03-2006 12:30 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
A book contains no information if no one is able to read it.
A book 'cannot exist' if 'no-one' is able to read it, Because no-one was able to write it. At least, not unless we create an abstraction to imagine such a place.
All lie's are abstractions! Imaginations and inventions. Imposters!
Stop trying to '''''prove''''' abstractions to me please, lest you defeat yourself.
With the Sword of the counsellor, Rob
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 113 of 126 (317138)
06-03-2006 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Rob
06-03-2006 12:40 AM


Re: Information is an abstraction???
All of this nonsense simply as a result of refusing to recognize the obvious!
'As Malcolm Muggeridge astutely observed, it is 'the depravity of man' that is at once the most unpopular of all dogmas and yet, the most empirically verifiable.' -Rzim.org
Because you will not admit your sin, you will never see a whole picture of reality and are condemned to a depraved mind.
Boys, your missing out on so much more... Think it over, your both too smart for that garbage...
Brother Rob

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 Message 112 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 12:40 AM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 115 of 126 (317140)
06-03-2006 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by nwr
06-03-2006 1:03 AM


Re: This is pointless...
Just imagine me saying 'mea culpa' faster than Bill Clinton can bite his lower lip for the camera...
Rob

This message is a reply to:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 116 of 126 (317141)
06-03-2006 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by nwr
06-03-2006 1:03 AM


It is people with made up minds like you [nwr] that Jesus was speaking to when he said, 'Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!' John 8:43-45

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Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:20 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 117 of 126 (317142)
06-03-2006 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Rob
06-03-2006 1:14 AM


Discussion and Controversy

Doing the best I can with what I have at the moment...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:14 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:35 AM Rob has replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 118 of 126 (317143)
06-03-2006 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Rob
06-03-2006 1:20 AM


That was a blast!
updated profile... mail is always open.
Goodnight, Rob

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:20 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:44 AM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 119 of 126 (317145)
06-03-2006 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Rob
06-03-2006 1:35 AM


One more thing...
The Walls of Huntsville
By Robert Lockett
Though these walls of Huntsville may feel like a prison, God sets all ablaze and restores with precision.
He has given to others deserving it more. He gives us a new love, when we open the door.
The devil would have us believe it's our life, to do as we please take control of the knife.
The battle goes on and fools rush to her side, finding emptiness timeless in time deep inside.
She's a sly old serpent with time on her side, let’s look to the timeless get ready to ride.
There's flesh that needs carving, the sword is death to its pride, dividing the darkness with light down inside.
Our pride will not shine like she coached us thus far, lay it down in defeat, all that's left is the scar.
Do not miss that old love she deceived us in vain, to run from the truth is the essence of pain.
She can threaten and howl and remove our good name, scar us for life and shower us with shame.
Freeing the prisoners a bloody red mess, when your sword is kept clean there is eternal rest.
As we fish and ask men to walk out on this dock, through the gate at the end we can laugh at the clock.
Though the bricks won't come down till the day we go home, we trust in our savior 'the truth' and don't roam.
If the locks and the chains see no end in this place,
Just remember the keys are His glory and grace.
The walls of this place may be around till the end, we do not fear death it's a promise to mend.
He did more than promise He defeated her lies, when He rose from the dead and then into the skies.
So kick us and spit you can call us all fools, but if you'll face the light you'll be given new tools.
Try a sword and a shield with a whole set of armor, to drive away darkness with courage and honor.
Some things are inevitable, like our death and our sin, you can die now and start life all over again.
A new heaven and earth He'll set in a new light, if you'd like God can show you right now He is right.
Be honest with Him and you'll never regret, His reaching inside for your heart to reset.
He died on that cross for you just as for me, showed the evil of mans heart there at Calvary.
The truth came invading our time and our space, we nailed Him up high and revealed our disgrace.
The truth is the sword coming out of his mouth, to face it and hear is the end of all doubt.
Nobody can handle the light that He bears, submit to that glory you'll know that He cares.
While we we're still sinners you came to set free, the light undivided in love shines from thee.
So drop your defenses and look in His mirror, his law shows your heart to you painfully clearer.
Do not lie do not steal do not envy your neighbor, and that’s only three that will haunt you forever.
Just come as He wills, tell Him just who you are, in the light of his law you won't get very far.
If honesty shows you your full of disgrace, trust His divine love of mercy and grace.
He isn't like us for He gave His own life, to give us forgiveness when we gave Him strife.
I could write on forever bout our savior and Lord, His word lasts forever and strike a great chord.
He sees you and asks you to not be afraid, He loves you so much that your fine He has paid.
He knocks on the door of your heart and please hear me, I could not have imagined that God was so near me.
Once was lost now I'm found once was blind now I see, my Lord and my God 'the truth' may I serve thee.
-inspired by the song, ”The walls of Huntsville’ by Cross Canadian Ragweed-
Off Topic - If you must read content, use the Peek button but do not respond.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Rob, posted 06-03-2006 1:35 AM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5879 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 121 of 126 (317323)
06-03-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Shh
06-03-2006 11:32 AM


Re: emergent properties
------Like "mind", "information" is an emergent property of material systems.------
Material systems are 'systems' because of the 'information' (physical laws and cosmological constants)that systematize them. They do not systematize themselves. The universe as a system is in a state of entropy. And entropy is '+'increasing (2nd law of thermodynamics).
If the system has evolved as you must necessarily presuppose with your 'interpretation' of the information, then the system would be less sytematized (ordered) in the past, because of the '-'decrease in entropy.
An entropic system (such as ours)cannot have been less ordered (systematized)in the past. In the past, entropy decreases not increases, and we would see '+' more order (systemization). Our world is coming apart, not coming together.
Before something can come apart, it must start out together or, 'whole' (the root word for Holy).
------Or rather, "information" is the name given to the abstract concept which is correspondent, to an emergent property of material objects within a system, which may affect the operation of the system.(I think)------
Thinking is good. We should keep thinking very carefully... Information is correspondant to the information that -is- 'the emergent property.' We recognize an objective pattern, because it corrosponds to what we already know. You, like 'nwr', are making the intelligent design case in the same manner as the boys from the Discovery Institute. You should have actually listened to what they were saying.
------There's no point in looking to the DI for understanding of materialist or naturalist philosophies they don't understand them, nor do they want to.------
Nobody understands materialist or naturalist philosophies because they are not understandable (i.e. nobody can understand why 2+2=7). The most notable examples are the materialist and naturalist philosophers themselves. The concepts are an abstraction, not a coherent philosophy (truth). They are a wishes, but not facts.
------Much of "reality" contains such, if they were a problem for naturalist/materialist/mechanist philosophies, then these philosophies would have been forgotten long ago.------
They are not forgotton, because to move beyond them requires a man to acknowledge God. To acknowledge God, means to look in the mirror and see the truth! They do not want the truth, they want to keep their sin. they don't need God, because they are God by implication.
------On the other hand if you're a Dualist, can you point out a single example of the second component of reeality? Matter and energy are one thing, what else is there?------
The logical and reasonable Holy Spirit of God. Matthew 12:31
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."
------(Please don't say mind, it's already included as a property of matter, and unless there's reason to believe otherwise I (for one) won't.)------
I didn't say mind, I said Spirit. It's not mind and matter. It's mind matter (body), and Spirit. The Spirit is the missing link! The link that contains the answer to the 'information' that is the origin of 'wholeness', that we are now deteriorating from.
Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."
Keep thinking and play for keeps, Rob
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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