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Author | Topic: Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill? Sequal Thread | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Kitsune Member (Idle past 4329 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
I get your point about slowing down. I'll make sure I do, no matter how many people are trying to debate with me.
I've learned, though, that in topics like this it's a matter of what kind of evidence a person presents. This whole forum accepts, as the best evidence, studies from prestigious mainstream journals. There are other sources such as the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine that are excluded because the mainstream has excluded them. I am asked to accept that the reason for this is that their methods are shoddy. Evidence from alt med practitioners is rejected. This makes it hard to defend my position because the very nature of many of the debates I've been in here is such that I am opposing mainstream views. Yet you ask me for mainstream sources. I'm not sure what the answer is there, apart from to refrain from making myself look ridiculous in people's eyes by attempting to debate such subjects here in the first place. I'm happy to go to science threads, but I doubt if I can contribute much. I started here by reading the discussions in them. If from them I am supposed to learn about "the nature of science," then I'm not sure it's going to happen. Any talk about mysticism or spirituality are shot down here as quickly as talk about alt med, and I feel those are an important part of life. Yet no one would call them scientific. If you think it's best for me to kick them out of my life in order to be "rational," then I would say give it up and go read your Dawkins.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9004 From: Canada Joined: |
This whole forum accepts, as the best evidence, studies from prestigious mainstream journals. This isn't how I see it. What I think is that "mainstream" is a short cut meaning "careful methodology". Some journals are trusted more because they have been subject to a lot of scrutiny and what they publish is more likely to be well done methodologically. The sources that you want to use aren't so trusted and, when the material published is examined in some detail the lack of trust is justified. They do not exhibit careful methodology. In the end it is the actual work that is what is important. Many of us are just more willing to trust some sources to have done better work. To settle any given issue it is, in the final analysis, necessary to drill down to the details of the available evidence.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
I won't reply to the content of your message because we're past 300 messages and it's time for summations. If you'd like to discuss why journals like the New England Journal of Medicine are respected while journals like the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine are derided, propose a new thread.
--Percy
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Kitsune Member (Idle past 4329 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
I did read the debate in the BMJ. There was a suggestion about rubella, which I repeated here. Why not limit the vaccine to adults who choose to have it, including women of childbearing age, if they have not already developed natural immunity?
You mentioned typhus again. And "diet and exercise." I think perhaps you don't know where I'm coming from. It depends on what kind of diet, and I would argue that the diet needs nutritional supplementation, e.g. with fish oil and vitamin C for a start. A lot of work has been done in the orthomolecular treatment of disease. I would be willing to bet that "Typhoid Mary" wasn't taking vitamin C.
This source, from the University of Washington in Seattle, talks about how natural treatments such as vitamin C (referred to as AA, or ascorbic acid) have been used in the past to treat a range of diseases, including typhus.
Miscellaneous, Primarily Bacterial. Bacterial infections were studied in the 1930's and 1940's by researchers who published hundreds of papers but used inadequate doses because of their conviction that AA was a vitamin. However, their findings were sufficiently encouraging that it appeared almost certain that the "massive" doses used by Klenner and Cathcart would cure the following infections (some rapidly): diphtheria, dysentery, leprosy, pertussis, pneumonia, TB, typhoid fever, typhus (and other rickettsial diseases). These papers were reviewed by Irwin Stone (1972) who introduced Pauling to AA. Klenner reported serious bacterial infections including diphtheria, hemolytic strep and staph clear within hours following one injection of AA, as sodium ascorbate of course, 0.5 to 0.7 g/kg body weight and "run in through a 20G needle as fast as the patient's cardiovascular system will allow" (1974,p.49). And, he reported (1974,p.62) that "massive daily doses will also cure tuberculosis..." but we have been unable to find how massive (50, 100 g/d?) or for how long (months, year?); this may not be difficult to determine in NZ, using "bowel tolerance." It has been demonstrated by Sirsi (1952) that a bactericidal level in vitro and in body fluids for virulent Mycobacterium tuberculosis is 10 mg%. Humans with sufficient AA intake to maintain the bacteriostatic level for TB (only 1 mg%) do not develop TB. In a 5-year follow-up study of 1100 men originally free of TB, 28 cases developed, all in the group with substandard blood AA levels (Stone, 1972,p.81). Cathcart (1981) has reported that serious uncontrollable infections by antibiotic resistant bacteria (necrotizing fasciitis, etc) can be successfully treated in a week with megadose AA along with the antibiotic, ineffective alone. The necessity of high AA in wbc for cmi has been stressed above. Much good work was done in the past with using vitamins for treatment of various conditions, which was named orthomolecular medicine by Linus Pauling. Unfortunately Pauling encountered some problems, particularly as the result of a series of studies at the Mayo Clinic which did not reproduce his methods, yet declared that vitamin C research was a waste of time and no one should continue to pursue it. Interest seems to be increasing in recent years, as you can see if you do a search on Pubmed. You ask why wealthy people contracted typhus. I need to know the year you are referring to so I can look up information. What I would say is that "eating your Wheeties" isn't going to protect you, you're right. But vitamin C megadosing might. We know that the gene that enabled our ancestors to synthesise their own vitamin C (as most other animals do) was lost probably a few million years ago. Presumably they were able to get adequate amounts from their diet. That is unlikely to be the case now for most people. Comapring the amounts of vitamin C that other animals synthesise, Pauling estimated that if we were to synthesise our own we would probably be producing 3-10 grams a day, and more when we are injured or ill. Maybe you can see now, one reason why I have faith in diet and supplements. They can be protective and they can help with healing. Remember, also, that I am not against vaccines per se. I support people's choice not to have them. (Why would this be a danger to others if the vaccines work as well as everyone says they do?) I also think that if there were a major outbreak of a virulent disease, then of course a vaccine should be available. This is the case in many developing countries today. Vaccines should not, however, excuse leaders from the responsibility of providing better living conditions for their people. Often an improvement in these will make a significant difference in the number and severity of diseases contracted.
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2671 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Lindalou, stop replying.
The thread is over 300.
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Kitsune Member (Idle past 4329 days) Posts: 788 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
Percy's post was not showing when I replied to Rrhain.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
AdminPD posted a notice yesterday about winding things down, see Message 284. EvC Forum has an unwritten rule that threads end around 300 messages, thereby providing a sense of closure.
--Percy
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