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Author
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Topic: Childhood Vaccinations – Necessary or Overkill? Sequal Thread
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 65 of 308 (427955)
10-13-2007 8:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by Kitsune
10-13-2007 12:21 PM
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Re: Mercury in Children
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The problem is, what you accept as evidence can be flawed,
What you accept as evidence is certain to be flawed. That is is flawed has been pointed out to you, but you just ignore that and believe what you want to believe.
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and in many cases I believe it is.
We are abundantly aware of your belief. What you have yet to do is demonstrate that your belief is based in fact and reason. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by Kitsune, posted 10-13-2007 12:21 PM | | Kitsune has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 66 of 308 (427956)
10-13-2007 8:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
10-13-2007 5:08 PM
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Re: Hang In There, LindaLou!
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LindaLou, STICK TO YOUR GUNS! Their big problem is that you're scoring for the wrong side. I'm with you until I'm convinced that their charges are valid. If they see fit to throw me out justifiably defending you, so be it!
Oh lord, you'll grab any chance to play the martyr, eh buz?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2007 5:08 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 70 of 308 (428032)
10-14-2007 7:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 68 by Kitsune
10-14-2007 3:14 AM
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Re: Hang In There, LindaLou!
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What I naively didn't expect, though, was that the level of skepticism and closed-mindedness here would be so high for so many aspects of life, not just pure science.
See, we get that claim a lot from creationists and others for whom their beliefs stem from anecdote, emotion or religion rather than from evidence.
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I do not say "I won't believe until you show me." I say "Teach me."
No, that's not what you've said. What you've said here is something along the lines of: "I know in my heart that I'm right and nothing will ever persuade me that I'm wrong. I will attempt to discredit or simply ignore anything you show me that contradicts what I wish to continue believing." That's what you have said here, repeatedly. That is as close-minded as you can get. We are open-minded; far more than you are, simply because we are willing to look at any quality, reliable evidence. What we are not, however, is willing to lower our standards of evidence, since doing so will only lead to error and bias. I am sorry that you find the argument frustrating, and I do sympathise. But I will ask you to notice who you are finding solidarity and sympathy with; Buzsaw the paranoid racist Creationist. He arrives at conclusions about Creationism the same way he arrives at conclusions about healthcare. What do you think that says about how you arrive at conclusions about healthcare? It is just more evidence that you gravitate towards that which agrees with you rather than that which is supported by the evidence. Remember, Buzsaw is the guy who believes that Barack Obama is a Islamic spy planted by radical Jihadists in order to take over the US government for Allah. Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by Kitsune, posted 10-14-2007 3:14 AM | | Kitsune has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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I'd love a response to this
I posted this reply to PD over at the other medical discussion. The original mesage can be found here. I have edited it slightly.
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Wouldn't vaccines prevent the species from developing an immunity or means of surviving the virus?
Yes, possibly. Of course, if you think it is better for many, nearly all, or all children in one or more generations to die or be maimed or weakened so that evolution could make the species less suceptible to a disease, then we should stop vaccinations. There could also be a local or even worldwide extinction of humans due to disease as well. This will be more likely if vaccines are abandoned. We could also stop giving people antibiotics to combat infection and only let the people with the strongest immune systems survive. Similarly, we could stop giving any medical assistance to pregnant women and let more of them and their infants die from post-childbirth complications. This would allow only the people for whom pregnancy and birth were easiest to survive, thus making the species stronger. We could stop treating all children who develop genetically-based childhood diseases. Many more of them would die before reproducing, thus making the species more fit. Etcetera. But that seems a rather callous, Ayn Randian sort of attitude, don't you think? The Spartans certainly would have approved, but I'm not sure I could stomach the lack of compassion required to allow such misery and suffering for millions when we have the means to greatly alleviate and in some cases totally eliminate it. I think you would be well served by reading up on the history of early childhood diseases before Pasteur came along. Do you have any idea what the death and maiming rate was for children under two years of age back then? What you are forgetting is the entirety of the history of life is the history of survival against disease as well as against starvation, environmental change, etc. Our species will never be completely immune from all disease (none is), because, of course, viruses mutate and evolve, too. It is not a game that we can ever win once and for all, but we can and do alleviate a lot of suffering and prevent a lot of death with vaccines. Why anyone would want to go back to the days of kids becoming paralysed from polio and simply dying from whooping cough?
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If parents received childhood vaccinations, would or could their offspring have immunity? Has this even been checked?
Yes, it has been checked. About 200 years ago, the notion of inheritence of acquired characteristics was rejected. The only way parents could pass on immunity to disease would be through a mutation. (Are you talking about the antibodies that newborns get from their mothers through the colostrum in her milk? That still isn't hereditary) Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 10-15-2007 4:19 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 86 of 308 (428221)
10-15-2007 2:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 83 by Percy
10-15-2007 1:19 PM
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Re: Request for Rational Thinking
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Non-thimerosal vaccines are more expensive than their thimerosal counterparts, as are alternative delivery systems such as nasal spray forms, and so they have a higher profit margin.
I am going to put my retailer's hat on right now and disagree with this, Percy. You have that backwards. A product that is more expensive to produce, and is priced the same as or higher than the lower-cost alternative is likely to reap a lower profit margin. Margin=Income/Revenue
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 83 by Percy, posted 10-15-2007 1:19 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 87 by Percy, posted 10-15-2007 3:24 PM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: I'd love a response to this
What response do I want? The best response you can come up with, I guess, is the one I want. I answered your question to the best of my knowledge and ability, but if you were looking merely for people's answers and not a discussion, then you don't have to comment. I suppose I have a follow up question for you. When I read the following from you:
quote:
"Wouldn't vaccines prevent the species from developing an immunity or means of surviving the virus?",
I really wondered why you asked the question. I wondered because following that statement to its logical concluson immediately lead me to all the other things we do to prolong life and heal people which get in the way of our species becoming more fit. What I wondered, specifically, is why it was that you didn't immediately come to the same conclusion before you decided to post the question.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by purpledawn, posted 10-15-2007 3:49 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Re: I'd love a response to this
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I'm not an evolution expert.
Neither am I. You have, however, been hanging around here for something close to three and a half years, and you say you aren't a Creationist, so I thought it reasonable to figure that you would have learned the basics of the theory by now. I apologize for presuming such a thing. Now that you have the answer to your question, though, how do you think it affects the argument against vaccination? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by purpledawn, posted 10-15-2007 4:24 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 94 of 308 (428255)
10-15-2007 5:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 92 by Percy
10-15-2007 5:35 PM
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Re: I'd love a response to this
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To the other participants in this thread: maybe we can take a step back and be more constructive as the discussion moves on. While I don't agree with PD's position, it does seem to me that she's been pretty fair and balanced with us.
On the one hand, yes, but on the other, no.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by Percy, posted 10-15-2007 5:35 PM | | Percy has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 96 of 308 (428260)
10-15-2007 5:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Fosdick
10-15-2007 5:45 PM
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Re: There is no link between autism and vaccines
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I know, you're gonna call this "anecdotal" evidence and dismiss it. But what can you say about this claimed connection between autism and vaccinations. That link is not the only one, and it may have been cited before on this thread; I haven't checked.
The article doesn't reference any peer-reviewed science, so there's no way to check up on the the claims. Anecdotal evidence of this sort is dismissed becasue it is worthless. At best, it can be a spur to doing real research. That real research has been done, and no link has been found.
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If you want to go get vaccinated for the flu or whatever, go ahead. But I won't. I won't even get vaccinated for the bird flu when flies in makes big $$$ for Big Pharm. But go ahead and let the med-pharm complex screw around with your immune system if you want to. Good luck and good health.
If terrorists detonated a dirty bomb that started a smallpox epidemic, would you rather get the vaccine, which involves some risk, or risk getting this disease?:
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Fosdick, posted 10-15-2007 5:45 PM | | Fosdick has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by Fosdick, posted 10-16-2007 10:44 AM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 121 of 308 (428383)
10-16-2007 9:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
10-15-2007 7:52 PM
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Re: There is no link between autism and vaccines
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The data given such as what Hoot cited
There's no way to judge the data if there's no references to the source of that data.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 10-15-2007 7:52 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 122 of 308 (428386)
10-16-2007 9:42 AM
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Reply to: Message 104 by Buzsaw
10-15-2007 8:24 PM
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Re: Playing with mercury
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We all did that back then when it was not known how dangerous it can be. We did likely have reactions but didn't know it was the mercury that gave us the headache, flu, hay fever or whatever.
How can playing with mercury expose you to, and then infect you with an influenza virus? How can playing with mercury cause pollen to fly up your nose and further cause your body to have an allergic reaction to that pollen? Honestly, Buz, the ridiculousness that is found in your posts is astounding. Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 104 by Buzsaw, posted 10-15-2007 8:24 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 123 of 308 (428388)
10-16-2007 9:54 AM
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Reply to: Message 120 by Percy
10-16-2007 9:14 AM
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Re: Ignorant Question
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Since there's no scientific evidence for harmful effects from vaccines because we get the same kind of results one always gets for phenomena that don't exist, why are you so determined that there must be ill effects from vaccines?
That's what I'd like to know, too. I have a hypothesis. Naturopathy discourages vaccination, and since PD "believes" in Naturopathy, she is trying really hard to hang on to any shred of anything that appears to be scientific support for her position.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by Percy, posted 10-16-2007 9:14 AM | | Percy has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 133 of 308 (428412)
10-16-2007 11:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 128 by Kitsune
10-16-2007 10:41 AM
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Re: Playing with mercury
quote:
crystal therapy being one that seems to be working for her.
Magic invisible gnomes are very good, too.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by Kitsune, posted 10-16-2007 10:41 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 140 by Kitsune, posted 10-16-2007 11:46 AM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 134 of 308 (428413)
10-16-2007 11:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 129 by Fosdick
10-16-2007 10:44 AM
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Re: There is no link between autism and vaccines
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How many Americans do you suppose have NOT been vaccinated for smallpox? How is your dirty bomb going to cause a smallpox epidemic when most of its intended victims are already immune to the disease? And if they are not immune to the disease then what was the point of the smallpox vaccination in the first place? You're running a circular agrument here.
Er, the US doesn't routinely vaccinate against smallpox anymore, and hasn't for quite some time.
source In the United States, the cessation of vaccinations 30 years ago has created what is effectively a virgin soil population in which previously vaccinated U.S. citizens have little if any waning immunity and those born after 1972 have none at all.[6]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 129 by Fosdick, posted 10-16-2007 10:44 AM | | Fosdick has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 138 of 308 (428418)
10-16-2007 11:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 131 by Kitsune
10-16-2007 10:58 AM
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Re: Ignorant Question
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Speaking for myself, I see no reason why I should wait for someone to tell me that it actually isn't OK to inject mercury, aluminum, antifreeze, formaldehyde, animal tissues and possible contaminants that go with them (remember SV40); common sense tells me that these things do not belong in the human bloodstream.
Guess you'd better stop consuming all of these foods:
source SOME NATURALLY OCCURRING TOXINS, CARCINOGENS, MUTAGENS, AND TUMORIGENS IN SOME COMMON FOODS alfalfa sprouts canavanine 15,000 ppm toxin basil estragole carc beer ethyl carbamate 1-5 ppb tumor black pepper piperine 10% by wt carc black pepper safrole carc bracken fern tannins carc bread ethyl carbamate 1-5 ppb tumor bread, fresh formaldehyde carc bread urethane carc broccoli allyl isothiocyanate carc butter diacetyl mutag cabbage allyl isothiocyanate carc cauliflower allyl isothiocyanate carc celery psoralens 100 ppb mutag chicken, grilled carcinogenic nitropyrenes (3) carc cinnamon safrole carc coffee benzo(a)pyrene (4) carc coffee caffeine toxin coffee chlorogenic acid mutag coffee diacetyl mutag coffee hydrogen peroxide carc coffee methyl glyoxal mutag coffee tannins carc coltsfoot senkirkine 150 ppm tumor comfrey (5) symphytine tumor fennel estragole carc fiddlehead greens ptaquiloside carc horseradish allyl isothiocyanate 50-100 ppm carc mace safrole carc morel, false (6) metyl hydrazine 14 ppm carc morel, false (6) myromitrin ~500 ppm carc morel, false (6) N-methyl-N-formylhydrazine 500 ppm carc mushroom, common parahydrazinobenzoic acid 10 ppm carc mustard, brown allyl isothiocyanate 50-100 ppm carc nutmeg safrole carc parsnips psoralens 40 ppm mutag potatoes chaconine 75 ppm toxin potatoes solanine toxin red wines tannins carc rocket (arugula) allyl isothiocyanate carc sake urethane carc shrimp (7) formaldehyde carc soy sauce ethyl carbamate 1-5 ppb tumor star anise safrole carc tarragon estragole carc tea tannins carc tomato puree methylglyoxal mutag wine ethyl carbamate 1-5 ppb tumor yogurt ethyl carbamate 1-5 ppb tumor more food badness, even in your favorites! source Goitrogens Goitrogens are substances causing goiter or thyroid enlargement. Soya-bean extract is in this category and goiters have been seen in human infants fed with soya milk. Iodine appears to counter act this effect, so infant soya milks are fortified with iodide as a precautionary measure. Goitrogens are a common constituent of plans belonging to the Crucifer family (cabbage, turnip, swede, broccoli, cauliflower, kale brussel sprout, rape and mustard seed). An epidemic goiter seen in Tasmania is probably due to milk from cows fed on kale and turnips. Alkaloids These are small organic molecules, usually comprising several carbon rings with side chains, one or more of the carbon atoms being replaced by a nitrogen (which confers the alkalinity). About 7 to 10 per cent of all plants contain alkaloids, of which several thousand are now known. Famous alkaloids include nicotine, quinine, strychnine, ergotamine and atropine. The less toxic ones, such as caffeine, are used for pleasant social effects. The powerful ones are hallucinogens (cannabis, LSD and mescaline). The well-known food allergy effect of addiction, where withdrawal from the food causes unpleasant symptoms, may be due at least in part to the addictive properties of alkaloids present in the food. The action of alkaloids on the nervous system is generally to disrupt electrochemical transmission at nerve junctions (synapses), either preventing transmission (as in the case of the plant poison curare) or enhancing it inappropriately (as, for example, physostigmine). Locoism, referred to above, is of this latter class. Outbreaks of food poisoning due to solanine (from potatoes), tomatine (tomatoes) and dioscorine (yams) have all been reliably observed in either humans or domestic animals. Death due to alkaloid overdose is fortunately uncommon in humans; in Socrates' case (hemlock) it was deliberate murder by the state. But subclinical alkaloid intoxication occurs all the time. The 'edible' nightshades (potatoes, tomatoes, capsicums, peppers) are especially rich sources, but cabbage, peppercorns and many other foodstuffs are not far behind. Salicylates Salicylates are aspirin-like chemicals that occur in many fruits and vegetable. They tend to cause pharmacological rather than allergic reactions. Adverse reactions are dose-related and only occur in sensitive individuals who have a constitutional predisposition. Hypertensive Substances These are aromatic amino compounds such as serotonin and norepinephrine (noradrenalin), which constrict blood vessels and thereby elevate the blood-pressure. Such substances occur in chocolate, pineapple juice, avocado, alcohol and cheese. quote:
Of course, everyone here is also assuming that viruses are the root causes of disease. There's also the holistic theory of disease, which says that the tissue itself has to be diseased before the virus can cause ill effects, just like the water has to be stagnant before mosquitoes breed. This is a basic tenet of traditional Chinese medicine. It asks why, when a virus or bacterium is present, some people stay well.
Some people stay well because some people have antibodies to the virus. Chinese medical philosophy was developed long before anybody knew viruses existed, long before the antibody response of the immune system was understood. Therefore, they did the best they could with far inferior information. Why do you think more limited, inferior knowledge will lead to better medical treatment? Edited by nator, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 131 by Kitsune, posted 10-16-2007 10:58 AM | | Kitsune has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by Kitsune, posted 10-16-2007 11:54 AM | | nator has replied |
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