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Author | Topic: What evidence is needed to change a creationist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It isn't a chain, but more like a bush. However, there is no direct chain between chimps and apes and humans because we didn't decend from chimps or apes. Modern apes and chimps, and humans, share a common ancestor.
quote: Why? That sort of thing happens all the time. Homo sapiens sapiens' last related subspecies was probably Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and went extinct only about 30,000 years ago. They probably co-existed with Homo sapiens sapiens for the last 15,000 of that. On the other hand, we are extremely closely related to Bonobo Chimpanzees, with over 99% of our DNA being identical to theirs.
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asif Junior Member (Idle past 5916 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
"Why? That sort of thing happens all the time."
but docent it seem to convenient to say anything that didn't evolve enough to be humans just died. someone somewhere has to survive. If Monkeys can survive , wouldn't 50% evolved humans survive ? What surprises me is the theory that is so rich in data and evidence can say that they just died and to say it happens all the time , I mean how do we know for a Scientefic fact that it happened. I mean its just that it seems theory makes so many assumptions that to me have not been proven as facts. how do we know that "it happens all the time" can you please point me to scientific proof , I would love to learn and read more and how do we know for a fact everything that branched off "Died" once again these are honest questions I struggle with so1. how do we know it happens all the time (study , facts, proof ?) 2. how do we know about the not 100% evolved humans going extinct ? Edited by asif, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. Most of the life that has ever existed on Earth is extinct. Extinction is the norm. This isn't "convenient", it is simply a direct observation of the facts. And there isn't any goal to evolution, either. None of the other apes were "trying" to be human so they could survive, or something. Evolution just doesn't work that way.
quote: Nope. There's no rule that says something has to survive. There were once at least 17,000 species of Trilobite, but not a single one is known to have survived to today. We might find one someday, of course, but the fact still remains that the vast, vast majority of them are long gone. Extinct.
quote: There is no such thing as "50% evolved". Every species is 100% evolved. OTOH, there are, in fact, "99% humans" alive today, though. They are called Pan paniscus, or "Bonobo chimpanzees. And again, there is no rule that any particular species "has to" survive". Some do, but most don't.
quote: Like I said above, extinction is the norm. The reason we know they lived and became exinct is from the evidence found in nature.
quote: Know of any living Trilobites? Extinction is the norm.
quote: Can you even correctly state what the theory is? Can you summarize what the Theory of Evolution is in a few sentences without having to go look it up somewhere? I predict that you cannot, and that should tell you something. If the ToE is so poorly supported, then are all Evolutionary Biologists stupid? Or liars?
quote: Extinction - Wikipedia
quote: Do you see any Neanderthals walking around today?
quote: see above
quote: Again, everything is 100% evolved. We have fossils and archaelogical evidence of Neanderthals, but no known living Neanderthals. Pretty safe to say, I think, that Neanderthals have died out. Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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asif Junior Member (Idle past 5916 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
no not everyone that believed in ToE is liars and biggots.
Its a theory that people believe in and some don't. My only complain is still you have not pointed me to a scientific study of your answers which I would like to read. I dont believe in creationism as described in the bible , but I am not convinced by evolution. Why is it that we have to take one of the two as facts ? Isnt it just possible that 100 years from now the ToE is proven to be incorrect by some other theory. My point being so far I have no read any literature that is convinced me that ToE is a False proof 100% correct theory. You see your answers are not convincing me you are telling me its fact and thats it. How do we even know that 17,000 species of Trilobite existed. Once again can you provide me the link of the study that showed that so i can read it that all of them went extinct and how ? I am here to learn not to create a fight , I really appreciate you answering these questions but its just that the answers are no based on false proof facts and are unconvincing right now. Thanks
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Here's a couple of illustrations of the branch of the evolutionary tree of life with the primates on it.
I hope these help to illustrate things for you.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: But what about "stupid"? Are the Geneticists and Biologists whi use the Theory of Evolution in their work every day somehow deluded or just such incompetent scientists that they don't realize that the foundational theory of their fields is fatally in error?
quote: What is it, though, that you think you are arguing against? Can you explain it in a couple of sentences? If you can't, what do you think that means about your knowledge of it? Again, are the Biologists and Geneticists just "believing" in the ToE, or do they actually use it as the foundation of their work every day, do you think?
quote: Um, did you read the references at the end of the wiki on Extinction? There's at least half a dozen clickable links to scientific papers there.
quote: What do you think evolution claims?
quote: Nothing is ever proven in science. The correct concept is "falsified". This means that every scientific theory, no matter how established, must always be able to be addressed if new information comes to light. To answer your question, sure, it is possible. It is possible that the Theory of the Heliocentric Solar System, the Germ Theory of Disease, and the Atomic Theory of Matter will also be falsified. Are you suggesting that we should pretend that we don't know anything, simply becasue we can't ever know everything?
quote: Nothing in science is 100% proven or correct. Please, I am begging you, tell me in your own words what you think the theory of Evolution states. I suspect that you don't really know, or have an incorrect notion of what it is.
quote: And you aren't telling me why they aren't convincing you. You aren't discussing the evidence, you are just denying.
quote: Sure. Trilobite - WikipediaA Guide to the Orders of Trilobites Introduction to Trilobites You know, it wouldn't kill you to do a bit of your own googling. Look, can you just think for a minute about what you've asked. How do we know that there were 17,000 species of Trilobite? How do you think we know? Do you know that such things as fossils exist? I mean, come on, I'm starting to think you are pulling my leg. You act like you've never heard of extinction, and now you act all shocked that we might have a reason to think that there were 17,000 species of trilobite. Exactly how much science/Biology education do you actually have? Edited by nator, : No reason given. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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asif Junior Member (Idle past 5916 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
thanks for your response , and to let you know yes i am reading stuff on wikipedia right now
I am not pulling your leg , I am asking honest questions I have. I will read all the links you have provided (will take 2-3 days to go thru all that and get back to you) once againthanks Edited by asif, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Hope you aren't a hit and runner.
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asif Junior Member (Idle past 5916 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
no , I am not , there is a lot of stuff there to read, and the reply I post I want it to be intelligent so I can clearly lay out all the questions I have.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Excellent.
I look forward to your response.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
OK, I think you were putting me on when you said that you weren't a hit and run poster.
Come on, time to actually discuss the evidence I provided. Don't be afraid. Learning new things is really quite enjoyable.
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teen4christ Member (Idle past 5827 days) Posts: 238 Joined: |
asif writes
quote:Evolution is both fact and theory. quote:Yes, it is very possible that the theory could be discarded in the future. This is why a theory could never be proven. I'll tell you this much. Within the scientific community, there are few other theories that have such overwhelming evidence to support it. Again, while it is possible for someone to bring about some evidence that would disprove the theory, many are beginning to believe that this particular theory is here to stay. quote:There are very smart people who spend their entire lives studying and researching on this issue. These are called scientists, professors, etc. They didn't become biologists because they asked a couple questions and someone somewhere gave them the answers. If you are so interested in this subject, perhaps you should consider taking a few classes at your local college? While it will certainly not give you all the answers you want, it's a start. You just can't expect someone over the internet to summarize 150 years worth of scientific inquiry in a few short paragraphs for you.
quote:Those answers shouldn't be convincing. No short answers should ever be convincing when we are talking about a subject as broad as evolutionary biology. quote:Because we've found millions and millions of fossil remains of these critters, and we aren't seeing any crawling around. quote:Well, I would guess that most people here speak from experience. It certainly is my case anyhow. I'm lousy at internet research. Unlike a lot of people, I took the long route by going to college and do actual researches in libraries. With that said, I'll leave this question to someone else who is more fluent in the art of internet searching.
quote:Just keep this in mind. There are millions of very smart people out there who think this particular theory is here to stay. The theory of evolution has contributed to many many discoveries and scientific endeavors that have saved millions and millions of lives. Evolution directly predicted the existence of DNA and directly lead to the entire field of genetics. That flu vaccine we took late last year was produced based on evolutionary concepts. All of these things are taking place without your approval. So, something must be right about this theory that has made it so successful not just on paper but also in real life. Again, it is unfair for you to want some answers in a few short paragraphs that summarize something as broad as evolutionary biology. Do you remember taking biology in middle school? How about geology? I do. I also remember taking algebra in middle school. The thing that I remember most clearly about these things is I didn't pass those classes after spending 15 minutes or so asking a couple questions and reading a couple answers. With that said, my advice is this. Instead of asking people to prove to you right now in a few short paragraphs that evolution is real, perhaps you should consider asking for specific things about evolution. For example, you could start by asking people to explain how organisms are slightly different from their parents because of mutations and how these mutations can accumulate into something that could give them slight advantages over other organisms. In order to understand evolution, you need to start small. You're asking big questions right now, and I don't think anyone can answer your big questions, especially when we're not even sure you could understand them.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4218 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
you are telling me its fact and thats it. How do we even know that 17,000 species of Trilobite existed. Once again can you provide me the link of the study that showed that so i can read it that all of them went extinct and how ? Try this trilobite There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other
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asif Junior Member (Idle past 5916 days) Posts: 6 Joined: |
I am sorry I have work to do as well. It took me all this time just to read about Trilobites and am still reading more about it , there is a lot of info. I am sorry if I sound as hit and run but I cant dedicate more then 30 mins - 45 mins to read and with that much time it takes a long while to read.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Look, the wiki page on extinction is only a page. The trilobite wiki is only a page.
You don't need to read the entire giant trilobite website to understand that there are ten orders, five thousand genera and seventeen thousand species. You must have realized by now that it is the fossil record which has provided that evidence. Those two points were the only reason I sent you to those websites, so I think it is time for you to either concede that 17,000 species of trilobites exist and that all of them are now exitinct, or tell me why you don't concede. What I'd really like to get back to even more is the basics, which consists of what you believethe Theory of Evolution to be. It is my belief that you do not have an accurate idea of what it is and what it claims, so any evidence we provide will be useless unless and until you are clear about what it is. I would be happy to provide a definition for you and answer any questions you might have. So please, asif, let's start at the begining, with the theory iteself, so that the work you and I do to follow isn't wasted. Edited by nator, : No reason given. 'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy "What we need is not the will to believe but the will to find out." - Bertrand Russell "Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind." - Isaac Asimov "We not only believe what we see, to some extent we see what we believe...The implications of our beliefs are frightening." - Richard Gregory
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