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Author Topic:   Evidence for God
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 40 of 213 (481065)
09-08-2008 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Open MInd
09-08-2008 6:56 PM


Re: A misleading thread
According to Judaism G-d promised never to forsake the Jewish people forever. Any other religion must therefore believe that G-d has broken a promise. This is my knowledge of the subject, and I hope it answers your question.
as you say "according to Judaism" but what if the Judaism prophets were false prophets?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Open MInd, posted 09-08-2008 6:56 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 1:26 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 47 of 213 (481154)
09-09-2008 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 1:26 PM


Re: A misleading thread
What I wrote was not said by a prophet, but it was written in the Torah. The Torah was given to the Jews not through a prophet, but through G-d Himself. That is correct, the Jewish claim is that 600,000 grown men heard G-d speak at the same time.
Says who? There is no proof that the Torah was written by anyone men.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 1:26 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 11:14 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 50 of 213 (481212)
09-09-2008 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Open MInd
09-09-2008 11:14 PM


Re: A misleading thread
In the Torah, however, Moses shows signs to the Pharaoh and brings about ten plagues, yet the Pharaoh still refuses to believe in G-d. Would experiencing a miracle change your mind about G-d? It did not change the mind of Pharaoh. According to Judaism, even a miracle may not be considered a valid proof of anything. And you think you are a skeptic.
Again where is the corroborating evidence? Why is the Torah any more real than say the Illiad, the Rig Veda, the Zend Avesta or any other mythological work?
Edited by bluescat48, : spelling (I'm the worlds worst typist

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Open MInd, posted 09-09-2008 11:14 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Open MInd, posted 09-10-2008 12:05 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 52 of 213 (481217)
09-10-2008 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Open MInd
09-10-2008 12:05 AM


Re: A misleading thread
Did you read my challenge in the previous paragraph. I ask you to try to explain how the Jewish religion was started. It is that simple. I am telling you that this religion has a unique claim that "all" other religions do not have. The evidence is a religion that testifies to the validity of the Torah. You must explain a logical framework for how this religion was started from the Torah. Also, try to explain why nobody else was able to do the exact same thing (since only "one" religion cared to start in this manner).
Your point is that the Torah came from God. My point is that it did not.
Judaism stated the same way as any other set of beliefs, from stories handed down through generations.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Open MInd, posted 09-10-2008 12:05 AM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Open MInd, posted 09-10-2008 12:28 AM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 56 of 213 (481245)
09-10-2008 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Open MInd
09-10-2008 12:28 AM


Re: A misleading thread
You are ignoring the challenge that I am presenting you. If you cannot solve this problem then you are admitting that there is a difference between Judaism and other religions. For the sake of this debate can you please come up with a mechanism for the beginning of Judaism.
You are assuming that the Torah was written before the Judaic religion was formed. The Torah was not written before the Religion was formed, but as Modulous stated
It was a deriviation from Babylonian worship of Marduk and other local deities such as El. Given the proximity of the various tribes that believed very similar things, that doesn't seem all that far fetched.
It was a collection of stories from various sources.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Open MInd, posted 09-10-2008 12:28 AM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 2:52 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 79 of 213 (481587)
09-11-2008 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Open MInd
09-11-2008 3:01 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
You are wrong. Religions are not started to explain stuff. They are started for fame, money, and power.
Where is the evidence of the above statement. Yes there are quacks, but most religious beliefs are nothing more than mythology to explain what the particular group could not explain.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 3:01 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 8:48 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 82 of 213 (481613)
09-11-2008 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Open MInd
09-11-2008 8:48 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
Where is the evidence of the above statement? Also, you refer to religious beliefs, and you make no mention of the formation of an actual organized religion.
Organized? Explain why there are hundreds of Christian denominations all claiming to be the "right" one, all different but using the same set of scriptural books, The Bible.
Please explore the foundation of the widely practiced religions of today and you will see where I am coming from.
All of them base their dogma on ancient writings.
I might add as well that the Torah makes almost no mention of the physics of the Universe. All it basically says is that the world you see today was created by G-d. Then it gives a cryptic explanation made to be something that humans can understand.
Oh! So humans are stupid since they are given a childish story of creation, instead of what really occured.
The Torah is not a science book and it never was a science book.
Well that's refreshing to hear. Unfortunately many people think it is.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 8:48 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 9:23 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 90 of 213 (481709)
09-12-2008 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Open MInd
09-11-2008 9:23 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
The Christians have changed the text many times.
Where is the evidence that your version has not been changed many times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Open MInd, posted 09-11-2008 9:23 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Open MInd, posted 09-12-2008 12:37 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 94 of 213 (481800)
09-12-2008 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Open MInd
09-12-2008 12:37 PM


Re: Not so Far Fetched
You are assuming change with no facts to back it up.
I am assuming change due to the fact that for the first x thousend years there was no actual writing and the stories were passed down by word of mouth.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Open MInd, posted 09-12-2008 12:37 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 109 of 213 (482327)
09-15-2008 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Open MInd
09-14-2008 6:01 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
So if someone taught you as truth that the world was made of chocolate and you could get this by digging 50 meters would you believe that, too?
Edited by bluescat48, : spelling

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Open MInd, posted 09-14-2008 6:01 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 1:19 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 114 of 213 (482442)
09-16-2008 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Open MInd
09-16-2008 1:19 PM


Re: A Real Skeptic
Why is my statement any more illogical than
I can believe this book because it was taught to me as truth.
Just 'cause it was taught to you as truth doesn't make it so.
Edited by bluescat48, : missing line

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 1:19 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 5:45 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 130 of 213 (482531)
09-16-2008 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Open MInd
09-16-2008 5:47 PM


Re: Not a Real Skeptic
You have to admit that you are making some wild assumptions when you consider the whole world to actually exist. There is not a shred of evidence to make you believe that the world actually exists. Not even one shred.
So lets go one step further, if I have no evidence that the world exists,then I have no evidence that you exist. I f the world doesnot exist, then were was I when I was in Vienam, Germany, Australia, Italy, Canada & Iceland? Where was I when I was In Texas, California, Hawaii, Vermont, Colorado, Washington, Alaska, Alabama, South Carolina, Illinois, Indiana, Rhode Island, New York, Virginia, Mississippi, Iowa, Ohio, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Arkansas, Okalahoma, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, Maine, Connecticut, Georgia, West Virginia or Massachusetts

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Open MInd, posted 09-16-2008 5:47 PM Open MInd has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 140 of 213 (482684)
09-17-2008 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Open MInd
09-17-2008 2:30 AM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Are you a fool. You would not follow the word of G-d if evidence was poking you in the eye.
Maybe I would if G-d (whatever that is) was "poking me in the eye", but the only evidence that is "poking me in eye" is the lack of evidence of any deity G-d or otherwise.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Open MInd, posted 09-17-2008 2:30 AM Open MInd has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 143 of 213 (482709)
09-17-2008 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Open MInd
09-17-2008 2:47 PM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
Where is the evidence of this
With regard to the Torah, I have already said that 600,000 people accepted the Torah which claims that they all heard G-d speak to them, and they all survived.
other than your Torah itself?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Open MInd, posted 09-17-2008 2:47 PM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4218 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 157 of 213 (482814)
09-18-2008 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Open MInd
09-18-2008 12:05 AM


Re: Actually Getting Back On-Topic
You did not ask for a proof of G-d's existence. All you asked for was evidence. Therefore, I have told you that everything that exists in the world is evidence of G-d.
That is not evidence but still blind faith. One could as esily say that it was evidence of Zeus or Ra or any other deity. It would still be faith not evidence.
(open Mind) You can still reject the evidence, but this does not stop it from continuing to be evidence.
(Modulous) You haven't provided evidence that exists outside of the Bible that YHWH is the Creator.
You have provided evidence that may or may not argue that a Creator exists and that Judaism is one of the longest surviving religions. Outside of the Bible, how does you propose this demonstrates that YHWH is the creator?
As modulous states there is no confirming evidence only ~3000 year old writings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Open MInd, posted 09-18-2008 12:05 AM Open MInd has not replied

Replies to this message:
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