Why so friggin' confident?

The purpose of the faith and belief forum of EvC is to DISCUSS and EXPLORE the evidence and logic behind all religious faiths and beliefs, not just Christianity, in a rational manner. The rules of logic still apply to this section of the forum. EvC is not a Christian evangelism board. If you want that, go to GodTube or some Christian evangelism forum. You can share to your hearts content, but if it does not follow the rules of evidence and logic prepare to have your arguments rebutted.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

I agree with Huntard, this is hearsay and philosophical musings by a Christian apologist not evidence of the existence of demons.BTW, I am a fan of C.S. Lewis as well as his Inklings friend J.R.R. Tolkien. They are both fantastic story tellers in their own right. I have in my library and have read all of the Chronicles of Narnia, his Space Trilogy i.e. Paralandra and his non-fiction books i.e. Mere Christianity, The Screwtape Letters, etc. He was a very intelligent man. But intelligent men can be wrong. Even Albert Einstein was initially wrong about the Steady State Theory of the Universe.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

If Einstein was unintelligent, what does that make you? WTF, that doesn't even make since. His understanding of atoms had nothing to do with his belief in God. This quote is taken out of context by Christian fundamentals (BTW Einstein was Jewish by heritage not Christian) it has nothing to do with the concept of a supernatural omnipotent being of the Bible, rather it was an off-handed comment about his refusal to accept the uncertainties brought about by quantum mechanics, nothing more.Einstein didn't believe in a personal God because he didn't trust the contradictory, morally depraved human-derived work called the Bible, as shown here: Einstein, was a humanist (though probably not altogether an atheist). He bordered somewhere between agnostism and deism. Than why do you post on these boards?Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Yes, I understand the classical definitions of intelligence and widsom but this is not what John 10:10 said, he made the assertion that Einstein was unintilligence not unwise.I don't know how "wise" Einstein was but I definately know he was not unintelligent.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

To summarize and make it short. You believe it is true because you want it to be true irregardless of any evidence for or against it being true. That is what most non-religious people (myself included) would take of your statements of faith.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Again no shred of evidence. Just unsubstantiated assertions.What would you think if I said that I believe that Zeus is real and that if you don't believe in Zeus then he would send you to Hades in eternal torment. What proof do you have that my beliefs are false and yours are true.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So you can't even take people like Rahvin and myself at their word when they say they were Bible reading, God loving, obedient Christians who through critical thinking and further study determined the Christian faith to be a farce. Actually Paul never said they were not true Christians or disciples, he just rebaptized them in the name of Jesus and laid hands on them because they were originally converts of John the Baptist not Jesus and thus never recieved the teaching of the Holy Spirit by Jesus. Sounds like your a "once save, always saved" breed of Christian. This is just another attempt by Christians to seperate themselves from fall-aways by saying they were not true Christians in the first place. This is the common "not a true Scottsman" logical fallacy.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

I also read that Mohammed was the last prophet of God and that we should be obedient to his teachings in the Koran. So why are you not being obedient to God in respect to Mohammed's teachings?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

brainwashAnd which followers would those be? The Roman Catholicism, the Eastern Orthodox, the Episcopalians, the Methodist, the Free-Will Baptists, the Independent Baptists, the Southern Baptists, the Anglicans, the Mormans, the Jehova's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Presybetarians, the Pentecostals, the Church of Christ, the Independent Christian Church, the Christian Scientists, the Quakers, the Shakers, the Lutherans, the Unitarian Universalists, the Congegationalists, the Trinitarians, the Amish, the Church of God, the Gnostics, or the World Wide Church of God? (By the way this is a mere spatering of the some 10,000+ Christian denominations/sects that exist out there, each of which believe they understand God and the Bible best).Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Do you see your logical fallacy here?You missed my entire point of WHY should I believe Christianity (or even Judaism) over Islam.Your reasoning is circular and you don't even realize it.Basically you are saying: "I believe in a Jesus and God because the Bible say so."Me- "So why do you believe in the Bible and not the Qur'an or any other religious text?"You - "Because God says he is the only true God in the Bible."That is a logical fallacy called circular reasoning.Use your brain. If you want anyone to take you seriously, provide real evidence for your beliefs. Otherwise you are just another blind believer who cannot even provide a credible reason for his religious faith.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Again circular reasoning and bare assertions with not one shred of evidence.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

WHY!!!!Why should we trust this 2000 year old book. Why should we not trust the Quran, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price, the Tanakh (the Hebrew Bible), the Theravada and the Mahayana (Buddhism), the Gaudiya Vaishnavism and Sruti (Hinduism), the Gnostic Gospels, the Apocrypha, Dianetics (Scientology), or the Avesta (Zoroasterism). I could go on but I won't.Why should we trust the Bible over any of these other religious text?Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

So did an actual tongues of fire light on your head when you became a Christian? Did you speak in tongues (and yes I know there are different interpretations of what this actually means i.e. foreign languages, unknown language of heaven, etc)?And how do you know that it is of God and not the devil that is decieving you into thinking you are a Christian? And if you give me a biblical scripture again you just adding more layers onto your circular logic.Me- "How do you know the Bible is correct?"
You- "Because the Bible says that I received the Holy spirit when I became a Christian and I did."
Me- "How do you know you are not being decieved?"
You- "The Bible says so"
Me- "How do you know the Bible is correct?"ad infinitimBTW, this is talking about faith and the fallacy of blind faith and circular reasoning it entails.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Buzzsaw,I give it to you, at least you (and several others like Iano) attempt to provide some sort of evidence (i.e. fullfillment of prophecy, etc) to back up your faith (not that you have to according to the litteral definition of the word faith) unlike John 10:10's circular logic, blind belief and inability to provide a single coherent logical argument.At least with you it seems I am talking to a somewhat sane and rational human being who can provide some type of logical arguments even if I don't agree with many of your conclusions.I look forward to further debates with you.BTW I am not stating a logical argument here so this technically is not an ad hominum logical fallacy. It is just an observation that I needed to get off my chest.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

ICANT,You seem to be a much kinder and gentler religious person than many of the others I have met on here and you actually use some type of logic and coherent statements to back up your beliefs (which many religious people I have met do not) even though I may disagree on the assumptions made on behalf of this belief. However with that I have a couple of things to pick on in your statements : The question of "where the universe at T=0 came from?" doesn't make much sense if time (or more accurately spacetime) began at the Big Bang. It is illogical to ask what occured before time began because cause and effect fall apart without a reference to time.How do we know this to be true? Basically, it fits into our mathematical models of how the universe works. Could we be wrong? Of course, but no evidence to the contrary says otherwise. If it did than we would change our theories accordingly. Met him how? I have had religious experiences as well and have "felt the hand of God" on me so to speak (spiritually that is). But how do you know this is not a mere figmant of your imagination? What differentiates it from psychics who feel the presence of spirits and ghosts or those who have the "gift" of ESP? How do you know it isn't all in your mind?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan