Why so friggin' confident?

This is a good example of what I think this thread is about. Do you accept the existence of devils on the basis of faith or evidence? If your answer is faith, then given you have no evidence how can you have any confidence in the existence of devils.If your answer is evidence then I don't think that's what this thread is about. I think it's asking why people hold beliefs based upon faith as strongly, or even more strongly, than beliefs based upon evidence.--Percy

The discussion has turned to focus on evidence, but if there's evidence, where's the faith?In his final revision in Message 5 the thread originator said: Anyone who's convinced there's evidence for what they believe is not operating on faith, and this thread is about faith. What participants actually seem to be discussing is why some people see evidence where there is none.Or am I missing something?--Percy

The discussion in this thread is focusing on evidence, and even the religious are insisting that their faith is supported by evidence, but in that case you're all using the wrong definition of faith. This is the operative definition from Answers.com: The opening post asks how people can hold beliefs based upon faith even more strongly than those based upon evidence, and the answer we're getting is that those beliefs are not held in the absence of "material evidence." On the contrary, they proudly tout the evidence supporting their beliefs.That's not faith, folks.An example of faith would be having all the evidence against you and sincerely believing anyway.--Percy

Replying to both Message 77 and Message 78. Staying within the context of this thread would be nice. The definition of faith for this thread is in Message 5. Read the messages above that one where I express my concerns about this turning into another discussion of Biblical evidence. Consider it a hypothetical that doesn't apply to you, in which case you shouldn't be posting to this thread. Having evidence for what you believe is easy to understand. That's what everyone likes to think of themselves, that they hold beliefs that make sense in the real world. What makes no sense is not having evidence for what you believe. That's what this thread is supposed to be about.For example, the Reverend Billy Sunday once said, "When the word of God says one thing and scholarship says another, scholarship can go to hell." While that's perhaps expressed a bit strongly, it at least makes clear the type of faith this thread is about.--Percy

Hi Buz,You might want to read Message 4 that Message 5 is a response to. Your interpretation is precisely the one that I told the originator I wanted excluded. Also, quoting the portion of Message 5 that you're ignoring: Do you see the part about "no substance, physical or theoretical"? Does that sound he's talking about material evidence to you?You can talk about evidence supporting your faith as long as that evidence is immaterial, such as, "I know the Bible is the inerrant word of God because I can feel God's presence in every word."--Percy

How do you know the events of Acts 1 and 2 really did happen? Don't you accept on faith that they are accounts about actual events?--Percy

Good question, let's see if I can answer it.Let's consider the belief that if you lead a good life you will go to heaven. Do you think there is evidence for this belief? If not, then that's the kind of faith this thread is about.Where most previous threads concerning faith have become entangled and bogged down with arguments about evidence is the belief that those parts of the Bible that have corroborating real-world evidence lend support to those that don't. For example, the Bible says that Jesus upset the tables of the money lenders at the temple, and it is argued that the fact that the temple is real is evidence that the story is true. For another example, the Bible says that Pharaoh and his army were destroyed when the waters closed on them while they were crossing the Nile, and it is argued that the discovery of chariot wheels at the bottom of the Nile is evidence that the story is true. Or for another example, the Bible contains many prophecies, and it is argued that the prophecies have come true and that that is evidence that the Bible taken as a whole is true. This thread is trying to avoid these types of discussions that have already been done over and over again.--Percy

This thread is in essence asking, "How can anyone firmly accept something on faith alone?"For everyone whose answer is, "There's nothing I accept on faith alone," I guess they're done in this thread.--Percy

Definition of faith in play for this thread: Is the evidence you're talking about material? If so, I think you're off-topic.Is there any part of your religious beliefs that you accept on faith alone?--Percy

Well, whatever that Biblical definition of faith is, I don't imagine I could have anything against it at all. I think that in the vast majority of prior threads that have discussed faith that creationists argue it is supported by evidence. But that's not the definition of faith in play in this thread.Whatever happened to Mark 10:15, having faith like a child to enter the kingdom of God? Here's an analysis from the Echo Ranch Bible Camp site: If you require evidence, where's the faith, the "profound level of trust?"Anyway, the type of faith in the definition I keep citing and that's employed by that Bible camp is the type of faith that lies at the core of this topic.--Percy

Straggler wasn't saying that you agree with the premise of the OP, that faith means not having evidence. He means you agree with the author of the OP, who obviously believes that not having evidence for what you believe (which inconveniently for you happens to be the actual definition of faith) makes no sense.Straggler states the topic of this thread correctly, this thread is not about the kind of faith that requires evidence, which in my book isn't faith at all. So if you and Buz believe that accepting things on faith without evidence makes no sense, then I think everyone in this thread is in agreement and there's nothing to talk about.I'm still bothered by y'all's apparent dismissal of Mark 10:15, though, which I discussed in Message 137.--Percy

Poking around on the net reading Christian apologetics about Mark 10:15, they don't agree with you. They talk about faith and about giving up adult ways of knowledge, about offering prayers to God and following the guidance of the holy spirit.If spiritual beliefs could really be supported by material evidence then there would be no faith involved and there would be only one major world religion, just like there's only one theory of relativity and only one theory of evolution.--Percy

These are the definitions of faith available to you: So what you're saying is that you're not using definition 2, but definition 4. But the faith of definition 4 is still not something supported by material evidence. It just makes the questions raised by this thread more specific, for example, how can you trust that God's will is best without evidence?But if you want to talk about beliefs backed by evidence then propose a new thread.--Percy

You mean your religious faith is the same type of faith as when someone says something like, "I have faith in you, my boy, you'll go far!"Definitions 2 and 4 exist solely for the context of religion. If religion didn't exist, definitions 2 and 4 wouldn't exist, either. If there's no one participating in this thread who is using a religious definition of faith then I think discussion here is done. Well, that's quite a reversal!First you can't be persuaded not to talk about evidence, like your epic Message 142, an incredible 8476 words long.Then when it's suggested you propose a thread to talk about evidence, you say it's been done to death.Which, if you go back to the first few messages of dialog between me and the originator, is exactly the reason I gave for not wanting this thread to be about evidence, see Message 4: Can I interpret your comment about too many evidence threads as indicating that you now not only understand that this thread is not about evidence, but also the reason why?--Percy

Do you believe you have objective evidence that this voice of the Lord that you hear is real? Or do you accept on faith that it is real?--Percy