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Author Topic:   Evangelical Indoctrination of Children
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 110 of 295 (524208)
09-14-2009 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by slevesque
09-14-2009 8:57 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
Hi slevesque
I do find that your use of the word scientific theories is really analog to 'naturalistic theories'.
Hence the use of the word science in the word scientific theories." - All other theories are not science.
Because if this is so, then you are simply rejecting non-naturalistic explanations a priori.
Science deals with the natural, not the non-natural. That would be theology.
Perhaps you are talking about theological theories?
You are entitled to your opinion on this, but unfortunately, if you try to impose this naturalistic view in the education system then you are simply asserting it to be 'the truth', and so we come back to the original point.
In science class, science is taught. The "non-naturalistic" view is not covered in science, that's covered in theology class. Science deals with natural explanations and only natural explanations.
However, in order to do this, you also have to let the children question and doubt these assertions.
Are you honestly proposing that children be allowed to question scientific theories? Like Einstein's, Newton's, Darwin's, etc.? Really?
I think you have lost focus on what a childs role is in school. The child is there to learn. And while critical thinking should be encouraged, you have to admit, there are things that are just completely out of a childs level of knowledge, right? I would think questioning a theory like Einsteins is a bit too much for a child, don't you think so?
Do you feel evolution is easier for them to question for some reason?
Honestly, shouldn't the "questioning" of these theories be left up to experienced, trained and knowledgable scientist who know what they're looking at, and not a group of 5th graders?
The fear of the creationists invasion in the schools results in the NCSE wanting to teach a one-way evolutionnary-naturalistic explanation in schools, without questions allowed or alternatives proposed.
Any alternatives or questioning should be done by qualified scientist, not anyone who feels like it. So far, the concensus amongst scientist is that the Theory of Evolution explains what we observe in nature.
Now if your alternatives deal with only the non-natural, then that is out of the realm of science and should be left to those involved in learning theology.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by slevesque, posted 09-14-2009 8:57 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ochaye, posted 09-15-2009 4:23 AM onifre has not replied
 Message 118 by slevesque, posted 09-15-2009 4:42 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 124 of 295 (524307)
09-15-2009 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by slevesque
09-15-2009 4:42 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
If the supernatural was to be the cause of something inside nature (ex: DNA, or miracle.) than it would be science who would determine it, not theology.
A miracle? What are you talking about? - We're talking about science not mythology.
If science only deals with the natural (i.e. only things that can be observed in nature), then how can one, using science, come to the conclusion that it could only be supernatural?
For all of human history it has been the other way around. Science has removed the supernatural from ever single equation. In this day and age, it has become apparent that there is no need to invoke a supernatural cause when deal with natural phenomena. This is science.
Miracles, supernatural entities, etc., are dealt with in theology, and I feel they should be taught in mythology because that's all Christianity is. Modern day mythology.
So although science deals with nature, it does not have to be naturalistic.
Is this an opinion of yours? How do you study the supernatural?
Or is it just a conclusion you arrive at because (A) you already believe in God, (B) you can't understand how things would work without him, or (C) both?
But Let me hypethetically agree that science cannot alude to any supernatural causes.
No, please, don't agree. Just explain how science would do that.
Would you find it appropriate to talk about irreducible complexity, Intelligent Design, etc. in a religious class ?
No, not at all. It is not a religion. I wouldn't want my kids learning that garbage that a handful of idiots are proposing.
ID has no place in modern education. It is NOT science, and clearly, by definition, it is not a religion.
I do not know at what age you teach evolution down in the states, but here in quebec we only had a bried overview of it during biology class in secondary 3 and 5.
What you are failing to understand is that modern biology is what it is today because of our understanding that things evolve.
It is not a seperate entity of biology, it is biology.
Nonetheless, my opinion is that you do not teach things to children when they do not have the mental capabilities to question it. Teaching things to kids when they are not mentally able to express critical thinking on the subject equals indoctrination in my book.
This is nonsense. If this were the case then kids wouldn't go to school until the age of 15.
However, let me ask, at what age should a child be taught about the mythological character known as god?
And so you teach the ToE when it is assumed that the children probably teenagers) are mentally capable of questioning it.
Questioning what? What do you think a 15 year old child should question? 1 specific theory that a few fundamentalist, who are not educated in the subject, question themselves?
Would you also encourage a 15 year old kid to question the theory of gravity? Or the atomic theory? Or thermodynamics?
No wait, just evolution, right? Because you have an apriori belief in the supernatural -(that you lack objective evidence for)- and want those indoctrinated in this belief to question a theory that has mountains of objective evidence to support it. That sadly, you've never learned.
If this is what you are suggesting, then you are commiting an educational disservice to anyone that you encourage to do the same. Seriously, you should be ashamed to promote this level of ignorance to children, and to adults that are gullible enough to believe you.
I'm glad that the educational system, throughout the world, disagrees with your ridiculous opinion.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by slevesque, posted 09-15-2009 4:42 PM slevesque has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 129 of 295 (524320)
09-15-2009 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by kbertsche
09-15-2009 6:27 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
Suppose, for example, that we wish to learn the meaning of a literary work.
Isn't the "meaning" of literary work something completely subjective?
Couldn't we have 100 different readers with 100 different "meanings" for the work?
Who would be right?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by kbertsche, posted 09-15-2009 6:27 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

  
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