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Author | Topic: Evangelical Indoctrination of Children | |||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
quote: Nobody. Or, if you look at it another way, everybody. You are looking for authority in science and there simply isn't any. Things are true despite what anybody says, not because of it. We don't listen to Einstein simply because he's Einstein. It's that he can show his work such that you can do the same thing to see if it works for you. The only "authority" in science is whether or not the system works. It doesn't matter who said it. The only thing that matters is if the model works.
quote: Quite the opposite. Science has transcended the argument from authority. There are no "arbiters." Now, scientists are human and humans like authority, but the process of science is self-correcting and will work beyond the foibles of its practitioners. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to me:
quote:quote: And this would be where you start naming names. Who are these people? Why are your theologians better than mine? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
quote: I think you are confusing literary and historical analysis with theistic evidence. The same processes you are referring to with regard to the Torah, the New Testament, and the Koran have been applied to the Iliad and the Odyssey. So why do we think that there is a theological significance to the first three but not the other two? Simply because we don't believe in the Greek gods anymore? Every text of every religion has literary and historical significance, but that has nothing to do with the question of whether or not god exists. Given that some of those objective literary and historical observations are that the story of Jesus, for example, parallels quite a number of previous divine stories (Dionysus, Mithras, Horus, etc.) and that there isn't any extra-biblical evidence of Jesus ever existing, how do we justify saying that the New Testament is something other than another culture's mythology? Certainly these texts are important. There is literary and historical truths to be found within them. But these books cannot be used to justify the divinity of anything. That would be circular reasoning. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche responds to me:
quote: Oh, but there are. Each sect has their authorities. That's why there are terms like "excommunication" and "apostasy" and "heresy" and "schism." There is no such thing in science. Oh, there are quacks and charlatans, to be sure, but that is simply a recognition of people who repeatedly and/or spectacularly fail to provide the goods regarding their work while refusing to acknowledge said failure. Behe's a creationist, but he's also a capable biochemist. He still has his job. He still publishes. There is no conspiracy against him no matter how much he likes to whine that there is and no matter much of a fool he makes of himself with his "irreducible complexity." So long as he keeps putting out replicatable results, he'll still be a scientist. Cameron, on the other hand, was kicked out of every professional assocation he was part of because of his violation of ethical standards. He couldn't follow protocol, his processes were deeply flawed, his conclusions are trivially shown to be false, and he has engaged in outright fraud. And yet, he continues to this day to claim that none of that is true. He's a laughing stock not because of any ideology but because he's simply a crappy scientist. The only way to be rejected as a scientist is for you to stop doing science. Nobody else can do it for you. Compare that to Pius XII who excommunicated all Catholics supporting communism and those who are clamoring for excommunication of those in this country who support abortion rights. But then again, science is about things that are true despite what you think. When two people think differently, then the problem is resolved by going to the experimental results. Religion is about things that are true because of what you think. When two people think differently, each accuses the other of falling from the "true path." Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
kbertsche responds to me:
quote: And it is. That's why I responded as I did.
quote: From a theological perspective? Of course they are. You're confusing literary and historical analysis for theological significance.
quote: So why do we get to say that Zeus and Poseidon are fictions why Jehovah, Christ, and Allah aren't? What is this "objective analysis" that you have that results in different outcomes? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye writes:
quote: Ah, yes. People who aren't Christian are simply willful and spiteful children. They know it's the truth, but they just want to hold their breath until they turn blue while throwing a theological temper tantrum. How insulting. If you cannot show the same respect to people who don't share your beliefs that you demand they show you, why would you possibly expect to have your comments taken seriously? Talk about ad hominem commentary. Do you have any actual point to make or are we about to see yet another string of one-liners pathetically trying to masquerade as discussion? There are literally tens of thousands of sects of Christianity. How can you possibly claim that they "understand the Bible" when the people who actually want to believe it can't agree among themselves what it means? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to me:
quote:quote: You do realize that your second sentence immediately contradicts the first, yes? Consider the possibility that those who reject Christ actually love the truth and consider Christ to not be the truth. After all, two-thirds of the world thinks you're fooling yourself. Why should we take your word over all of them? They are just as sincere as you. They have just as much evidence as you. They can match you up and down the line in every respect. If you wish to have them treat your pet philosophy with any seriousness, then you have to return the favor.
quote: Willful, spiteful children. It can't possibly be that they have given it any thought and found Christianity to be ridiculous. There isn't any way they could have had their own experience with the ineffable and come to an independent conclusion that contradicts you. No, you are the only one who knows what is real and what isn't and anybody who contradicts you is self-loathing.
quote: And they can make the exact same argument to you for rejecting their god. So who are we supposed to believe? Why should anybody pay attention to your rantings when all you do is condemn people to hell?
quote: And how does that not apply to you? You offend others in your actions and your words. What is going to save you from the wrath of the god that truly exists but in which you don't believe? You've fallen for Pascal's Wager.
quote: And what part of that has escaped you? You have been quite unwilling to admit your guilt and behave in a decent, civil manner. You've just called anybody who doesn't believe what you believe to be a sinner, full of hatred, and condemned them to hell. In direct contradiction to what your own holy text tells you to do. Your simple act of declaring anybody else to be a sinner has condemned you to hell, you know. Mathew 7:2.
quote: So why do you defy him at every turn? It is not your place to judge others. God reserves that for himself. You do not know his will and you are in no position to tell others what to do. Remove the plank from your own eye, friend, before you dare to presume to help your brother remove the mote from his.
quote: What did you just say about behaving in a decent, civil manner? Are you incapable of any sense of respect? In the end, have you no decency left?
quote: And what will you do when you find yourself cast into that outer darkness with your guilt and shame for all eternity while they are embraced by the god that truly exists? Remember, every response you have can be matched by those who believe differently than you. So why should anybody respect you when you show absolutely no respect for anybody else? For someone who claims to worship a god of love, you seem to spew an awful lot of spiteful hate. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
ochaye responds to me:
quote: Oh really? The Bible says a lot of things. You're being quite selective.
quote: It would help if you would say what you mean rather than leaving it to people to guess. If you don't really mean the point you are trying to make but simply are presenting it as the ideas of another group, then why don't you say that? Do you not believe it? Do you reject this interpretation of the Bible? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
iano responds to cavediver:
quote: Because if only you believe and accept Jesus into your heart, you will achieve salvation. Sounds like a get-out-of-jail card to me.
quote: Not at all, for a significant number of Christians believe it and can point you to the textual justification for it. It sounds like your response is merely that you don't like their interpretation, and we start descending into a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
iano responds to me:
quote: You mean hell isn't as bad as jail?
quote: But the point is that you can have this "born again moment" at any time. How convenient.
quote: If you're talking about a Catholic-like concept of purgatory before ascension to heaven, you're still talking about a get-out-of-jail card. The fact that you can get out of eternal punishment simply by having a moment of clarity is awfully convenient.
quote: That doesn't solve the problem. You're still looking at a "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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