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Author | Topic: Jazzns' History of Belief | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Omnivorous writes: You have repeatedly rejected reciprocal altruism as being genuine altruism because the benefactor "thinks" he may benefit later or "hopes" for an eventual return. In fact, that is not an evolutionary perspective on reciprocal altruism. The benefactor does not calculate future reciprocity but rather has evolved to act in a manner you would consider genuinely altruistic--spontaneously engaging in actions that entail risk or cost without any thought of future return. We often speak of strategies or pay-offs in an evolutionary context, but by that we don't actually mean the individual is employing a strategy or weighing a pay-off; rather, we use that as shorthand to describe how an inherited trait could succeed at increasing reproductive fitness. Frankly this is a new term to me so I am not trying to suggest I’m knowledgeable in this field at all. When Straggler used it I looked it up on wiki and so I’ll quote it.
quote: It then goes under the Theory of Reciprocal Altruism to say this:
quote: It seems to me that I was correct as far as this wiki article is concerned. It appears to me that the benefactor does expect possible future reciprocity and there doesn’t seem to be any suggestion of this evolving into any form of pure altruism.
Omnivorous writes: The evolutionary perspective on altruism is not one of conscious calculation but rather one that posits that altruistic acts improve the reproductive fitness of the benefactor in one or both of two ways. One is the kin altruism notion, where the genes you share with those in your small hunter-gatherer group benefit from your altruism, albeit in another carrier; the other is reciprocity, where the individual benefactor benefits from the group dynamic of reciprocity. Obviously these are not exclusive, and the plethora of theories is much more complex than I've suggested here. I’ve mentioned before that I have no problem from a theistic standpoint to there being a genetic component in altruistic behaviour. I’m inclined to believe that there isn’t but I but that stems more from my views on consciousness. Regardless of how much of our altruism is genetic, cultural, social or spiritual we always are able to choose between selfishness and unselfishness.
Omnivorous writes: But, in any event, we are discussing a spontaneous behavior, not a reasoned one. I have engaged in and benefited from apparently altruistic actions, and I can assure you there is no calculation involved, especially in the more dramatic examples. Absolutely
Omnivorous writes: The definition you seem to desire is one which requires a conscious decision to benefit another at expense to one's self without any expectation of reciprocity or gain. You are describing a theological or ideological altruism, which I see as a cultural appendage of our evolved altruism. OK
Omnivorous writes: As Straggler suggested, we have an evolved tendency to consume high calorie, high fat meals. This made sense when food was scarce or calorically expensive to obtain. We don't consciously decide to do that--to the contrary, our scientific culture increasingly urges us to act consciously against our instincts for own coronary good. Similarly, I don't slug people who disagree with me--but the fight-or-flight adrenaline makes me type faster. Personally, I find the kin explanation of altruism most persuasive. In our ancestral social/breeding groups, the genes you saved really were your own, and the mirror neuron system we share as social animals reinforces the tendency to act because we really can feel each other's pain. As our numbers swell and the globe shrinks, the ranks of those we recognize as "kin" increases from hunter-gatherer band, to tribe, eventually to nation, and, hopefully, to species. I find my moral order in the good of my kind. Well our views are speculative. I’m inclined more to the still small voice that speaks to our consciousness but as I said earlier it appears that we have developed physically through an evolutionary process so there is some logic that we might evolve spiritually through an evolutionary process as well. I guess the question we are asking here is whether or not God is responsible for these processes, regardless of what the actual process is.
Omnivorous writes: BTW, your notion that the absence of a higher or absolute moral order should have led to the evolution of selfishness instead of altruism doesn't hold up, partly because social creatures punish cheaters and partly because it's bad game theory. I won’t be punished if I don’t participate in supporting third world countries and I can’t see where not doing it is bad game theory.
Omnivorous writes: In any event, my main point is that your focus on a conscious calculation is leading you astray. That may well apply to a Christian determined to live out the maxims or ways of Christ, but that's not why people run into burning buildings to save strangers. I didn’t mean to that altruism is a result of conscious calculation. I suppose that there are Christians who are determined to live the ways of Christ but that isn’t my understanding of the Christian message. I think you would agree with me when I say it is in many ways a learned behaviour. It’s a bit like learning music. The first few times when you see a C note you have to think about it prior to playing it. Eventually you see a C note and are able to play instinctively. I think altruism is something like that. At first we have to think about it but eventually unselfish love becomes the norm after a while if we practice it consistently. My understanding of the Christian message is that we are to have humble hearts that instinctively love kindness/mercy and act justly. CheersEverybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: Have a look at this vid. Great video. He is such a clear logical thinker. By the way, did you notice his closing remark.
quote: Straggler writes: If you don't accept altruism as an evolved trait then I don't see how you can accept any of Robert Wright's argument that there is an objective morality or definite direction to moral progress. Reciprocal altruism forms the entire basis of his arguments on this.If you do agree that altruism is an evolved trait then I am not sure what the disagreement is here. I do agree that altruism is an evolved trait. I am in agreement with Wright’s hypothesis completely. In fact, I find his polemic completely compatible with my Christian beliefs and actually supportive of them. Again I’ll point out that in one way or another we have evolved physically and from Wright’s point of view we have at the same time been evolving spiritually along the lines of the golden rule. IMHO it has the appearance of intelligent moral design . At the same time this doesn’t preclude the idea that there is more going on as well. As has been pointed out, even though there might be a reciprocal aspect to a particular act of altruism it isn’t necessarily conscious. For example a soldier might throw himself on a grenade to save the life of an Afghani child. On the surface he loses, his kin loses, and his comrades in arms lose him as friend and as a soldier. However, there is the possibility that this Afghani child will grow up always remembering the soldier’s sacrifice and become a leader of his nation reaching out in peace to the western world. At the time though, from the soldier’s POV it appeared as a zero sum game in that he lost his life so that the other life could be saved. The question is why did the soldier throw himself on the grenade. I think it is entirely consistent with the idea that we are more than just our genes. The soldier couldn’t know the huge positive outcome of his selfless act. He went to certain death as an act of pure altruism but at the same time it played out in a reciprocal way in the long term. I believe that it would take more than just a genetic trait to bring him to commit this selfless act. I believe that we have a spiritual side that develops in our lives and is formed by our social environment, but in addition I believe that it may be formed by the divine. As a Christian I believe that is the Holy Spirit of God in our lives. As a Christian it is my belief that our job is to spread by infection, for lack of a better term, pure altruistic behaviour as part of God’s plan. So I agree that the process of reciprocal altruism is built into our nature, whether it be spiritual or genetic, but it requires pure altruism to make it work. Again, it certainly has the appearance of intelligent moral design.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: We are evolved to seek out attractive mates, high calorie food and adrenaline inducing pursuits. The modern day result of these tendencies is pornography, Big Macs and the XBox. Not quite what nature intended. Or God either.
Straggler writes: Likewise our evolutionary past results in altruistic behaviour. Which means that when images of people starving on the other side of the world are beamed into our sitting rooms in many cases we feel compelled to do something about it. If you are going to give God credit for making us altruistic to strangers in faraway lands you should also blame him for making us want to stuff our faces with burgers and cheesecake. Because it is all part of the same misplaced evolved natural tendencies at work. Absolutely. That's the whole thing isn't it. We make choices. We have free will. We can choose mercy or we can choose to ignore it. It is all about selfish love or unselfish love. How much is genetic and how much is spiritual is of interest but that is the academic side, but IMHO it is all from the heart and mind of God. (I know I'm stuck with anthropomorphic terms but being human that's all I've got. )Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: I didn’t mean to that altruism is a result of conscious calculation.Omnivorous writes: Yet you have repeatedly rejected reciprocal altruism as "true" altruism because the benefactor "thinks" or "hopes" for reciprocity. I think I covered that in my example to Straggler. The hypothetical soldier was purely altruistic but in the end it turned out to be reciprocal. He didn’t consciously think that there might be a long term benefit in the end. He just believed it was what he should do and it was a truly selfish act. It seems to me that reciprocal altruism could possibly involve hoped for reciprocity or it may not.
Omniovorous writes: Altruistic behavior is displayed by other creatures. Music never becomes instinctive, but is rather a highly complex motor and sensory skill. Our response to music, like language, is probably instinctive, i.e., hard-wired in some way--in that sense I can see a parallel to altruism.Unselfish love may become the norm for a person who practices it, but that is an individual discipline rooted in intellectual or theological choice. I would think that it becomes hard wired by practice. I think we agree.
Omnivorous writes: And we are definitely not limited to speculation--or at least I'm not. I can apprehend and cite evidence to support my view. You cannot. To be honest I might contest that if I understood what your view was. Essentially my view is that in some form or another, altruism is spread by many means of which one may well be genetic. I don’t pretend to be knowledgeable in any of the pertinent fields so you’re right I can’t cite evidence to support my view. However altruistic centeredness is spread, I believe that it is a part of the divine plan and that is belief as the result of a subjective conclusion and isn’t objectively evidenced.
Omnivorous writes: I'd still pull you out of a burning building, though. I believe you and Straggler would work in tandem to do just that. It’s wonderful what God can do in the hearts of you atheists. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: So you agree that altruism is a trait that is a product of biological evolution but you can't believe that certain acts of altruism are the result of purely physical biology at work.You seem to be having your (high calorie) cake whilst scoffing it. I agree that altruism may have a genetic component to it. Frankly I don’t know and to the best of my knowledge nobody does. I think you would agree that a someone with parents that have a strong altruistic streak are more likely to raise a child with similar tendencies than parents without that characteristic. The same thing could be said for someone growing up in a community or even a nation in which altruism was practiced and encouraged. I don’t think that our kin or culture causes biological change so I have to assume that these influences impact us in a non-physical way. I’m only saying that there is more than the physical that influences our inclination to be altruistic or not.
Straggler writes: But Wright's entire materialist hypothesis is based on altruism having evolved. There is no divine "pure altruism" because if there were the entire non-zero-sum game theory aspect would be utterly redundant. Wright's talk of a moral direction and objective morality is based on the maths of non-zero sum game theory. Not on divine inner altruism shaping things somehow separately. The idea of a zero sum game is that if what is a benefit to me is equally detrimental to you. Like a game of tennis. I win you lose. If God influences me to act altruistically I can accept or reject the influence just as I can parental influence or any other influence. Yes Wright argues that evolution has involved but accepts that there may be a divine hand in that or there may not. This is from the book cover of The Evolution of God.
quote: Straggler writes: Yes - But what exactly does Wright mean by "god"......? You’d have to ask him but after reading his book it seems to me that he is more of a deist than anything else.
Straggler writes: How on Earth are you deciding which human natural tendencies to credit God with and which not to?Is he responsible for all such proclivities or only the ones you happen to consider godly and positive about? IMHO God gave us choices. He has given us freedom to choose selfishness or unselfishness. In that sense he is responsible for it all; the good, the bad and the ugly He encourages to choose the good.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: I am not convinced you understand the role of non-zero-sum game theory in Wright's analysis. It forms the entire basis of his objective morality and moral compass analysis. What he calls "divine" is essentially a form of mathematical truth. It shares more in common with the Platonic notion of a perfect circle than it does the Christian (or indeed any religious) notion of God when you really look at it. It isn't even really deistic in any sense that I understand deism as realting to some sort of supernatural being of some sort. Actually I think I do understand it but I don’t draw the same conclusions about design as you do. Here is a Wright quote that I think is the simplest explanation of non-zero sum game.
quote: I think the logic of this is undeniable. The question is once again, ultimately did all this evolve by chance from non-intelligent origins or are we the result of a higher intelligence with purpose? Wright was asked the following question. Let's talk about purpose and evolution. You're very clear that evolution has direction. What are you saying about purpose?
quote: I think the problem lies for both of us in our starting points or our biases. You are convinced of your atheism. I am firmly convinced of my Christian faith as I understand it. Mind you, even in saying that I know that based on all the different ideas out there and that we are all individuals, it is highly unlikely that I alone have been given the gift of infallible knowledge so I assume that some of what I believe is wrong no matter how convinced I am. In thinking about the discussion in the thread The Study of the Supernatural I think I could have said that there is no such thing as the natural and that it is all supernatural, in the same way that some said that something is supernatural only until we investigate it then it becomes natural. From my Christian perspective I’m not bothered about how God has instilled in us the concept of good and evil, or of selfish and unselfish love. If he chose to do it through a process of social evolution, for which I agree there is historical evidence of, that’s fine by me. The point is that I look to science to tell me how God did it and I look to other sources, primarily the Bible to understand the interaction of God with us and what that should mean for my life. I have been really interested in how consciousness fits into the overall scheme of things. He was asked the following question. I found it very intriguing in Nonzero that you talk about consciousness as a mystery that science, I think you say, can't solve. It hasn't, certainly.
quote: What role do you see consciousness playing in human evolution?
quote: I’m not sure if we are off topic here or not. The thread was about Jazzn’s cycle away from Christianity so I’m not sure if talking about my understanding of the Christian faith is on topic or not. Here is the link to the whole interview. It is fascinating. He has such a logical mind.
Suggestions of a Larger Purpose — An Interview with Robert Wright by Enlighten Next magazine — The magazine for evolutionaries Straggler writes: Let's for the sake of argument accept this as true. Do you then accept that God has also given us psychological proclivities? Is he responsible for ALL human psychological tendencies? Or just the ones you think are positive? All of them. We are capable of tremendous good and tremendous evil. Ultimately though I believe that perfect justice will be done.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: Nowhere that I have seen does Wright equate his description of "god" or "divinity" or "purpose" with anything other than the mathematical Platonic notion of non-zero-sumness. Whilst the language he uses certainly provides the leeway theists desire he never explicitly advocates anything that could be considered an intelligent conscious designer of any sort. That you interpret his arguments in a way that is compatible with your theism points to his non-explicit appeasement of such beliefs. I would argue that his language is misplaced. By the terms of his own argument you might as well call Pythagoras theorem "divine". I think he covers it to a large degree in the interview I sent you the link to. Personally I think that there is a lot to learn from Wright from either the Atheistic or Theistic POV. The information as presented by Wright is meaningful and useful from either perspective. It gave me a look and understanding of my Christianity from a very different angle. He does call himself agnostic, not atheistic so we should expect that he would be open to the possibility of the either view. (Frankly I think he leans towards theism but that is just my opinion. ) He writes this in The Evolution of God.
quote: Straggler writes: OK. Do you agree that humans are psychologically predisposed to various things which are not particularly positive in a modern day context (food choices, sexual urges etc.)? I know a trap when I see one but we’ll go with it. Yes, but predisposed is maybe a bit strong. I think a lot of those things are partly, and in some cases largely culturally driven. We also are given the same predisposition to reject less than positive urges. We have free will. We make choices. Life is just a constant sting of choices. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: Indeed he does. But all of my quotes from Message 72 were from later on in the same chapter you are quoting the beginning of. A chapter called "Afterword: By the way what is God". And what is being called "god" ultimately amounts to little more than the abstract existence of non-zero-sum logic jazzed up with some (IMHO) inappropriate terminology. I think you meant message 70. In that chapter he lays out the case for God with headings, in sequence; The Ultimate Reality of Science, The Atheist Strikes Back, and the The Believer Replies. He lies out rational arguments for both positions. He calls himself agnostic. In the chapter of Logos he again looks at the idea of higher purpose. He even vindicates Paley around page 402 where he says:
quote: In my own thinking I can’t see a world that is entropic, a world that we know will end at some point as having purpose. I know you can argue that purpose doesn’t necessarily mean an ultimate purpose but I don’t see it that way. If all there is our material world and when it comes to an end all life as we know it on this planet ceases then it seems to me that all short term purposes are meaningless. You can also make the argument that there doesn’t have to be purpose but Wright clearly comes down on the side that it appears that there is.
Straggler writes: But humans do have evolved psychological predispositions. Right?Would you agree that humans are instinctively altruistic at times? Would you agree that humans are instinctively selfish at times? Would you agree that humans are predisposed towards certain food types? Would you agree that humans possess instinctive sexual urges which are not always conducive to lifetime monogamy? Which of our psychological proclivities should we give God credit for? All of them? Some of them? I’ll try and deal with them all together if that’s ok. I agree that it appears that we have socially evolved psychological predispositions. I’m doubtful that there is a genetic component but maybe there is. I would say yes to the idea that we behave instinctively to be selfish or altruistic but IMHO there is a bit of a difference. I think that we have a basic pre-disposition to instinctively act selfishly but that we also have an aspect of our nature that we usually call a conscience. If we listen to that conscience and act on that, and do it consistently then over time it will become instinctive to act altruistically. The same thing can be said for food or sexual urges. I believe that we are all the product of an intelligent and moral prime mover that I call God which makes Him responsible for all of them. There are two aspects of that though that I would like to repeat. The first is that we have choices. If we cannot choose that which is wrong then we also are unable to choose that which is good and we are nothing more than robots. Secondly I believe that we only see the part of the picture that is our entropic world and that there is a bigger picture that will in the end result in perfect love and justice. Edited by GDR, : Error that I noticed when quoted.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
hooah212002 writes: The purpose for life is whatever you make of it. This is the one life you can know beyond a shadow of a doubt, the one that doesn't take faith or belief, that you've got: live it like it means something to you. I agree that's a reasonable POV even if it isn't one that I agree with. Straggler and I were discussing Wright's views and Wright does say that there is at least the indication of purpose in nature. I'll requote this bit:
quote: Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: But his use of "purpose" again simply seems to be referring to directionality that is the result of non-zero-sum logic. If that qualifies as "purpose" then I am not entirely unsympathetic to the idea of "purpose" myself. But the fact that Wright invokes Dan Dennett (of all people!!!) to his cause rather emphatically tells me that what he means by "purpose" and what you mean are not the same thing here. At the very least there is some serious conflation going on. To invoke Paley and Dennet as advocates of "purpose" in the same sentance is frankly intellectually unjustifiable. I’ll requote the passage from Wright you are referring to:
quote: I have to laugh when you complain about putting Paley and Dennet together. You sound like a fundamentalist. He is only saying about Dennet that he like Paley see imbued purpose in organisms. I have a hunch they diverge from that point on though. I think that I am thinking about purpose in the same sense as Wright except that from Wright’s POV he is saying that there appears to be purpose whereas I as a Christian believes that there is purpose. I think that we would even agree that the purpose is that we become more moral, (in broad terms), over time as individuals and as a worldwide society. In a sense that is the theme of the whole book. As it says on the book jacket:
quote: Straggler writes: But whilst people like Dennett are unequivocal in their use of such language I can certainly see why you see Wright as essentially theistic. He conflates and equivocates and implies a great deal. Terms such as "purpose" and "designer" and "transcendental" and "divine" (and even "god") are used in ways that can easily be construed to be very theistic indeed. But if you actually look at the concepts he is applying these terms to they are not at all recognisably godly. More like Platonic logical entities vaguely mathematical in nature. All of it derived from non-zero-sum logic. I was joking about Wright being theistic. I do think he sounds deistic though, but as we know he calls himself agnostic. I would agree that when he uses those terms that he isn’t using them in a particularly godly way but I think that he is using them in the sense that there is an indication of some form of intelligence that as provided a sense of direction or purpose for us, which is pretty much Platonic as you said.
Straggler writes: Which of our psychological proclivities should we give God credit for? All of them? Some of them?GDR writes: I’ll try and deal with them all together if that’s ok. I agree that it appears that we have socially evolved psychological predispositions. I’m doubtful that there is a genetic component but maybe there is. I would say yes to the idea that we behave instinctively to be selfish or altruistic but IMHO there is a bit of a difference. I think that we have a basic pre-disposition to instinctively act selfishly but that we also have an aspect of our nature that we usually call a conscience. If we listen to that conscience and act on that, and do it consistently then over time it will become instinctive to act altruistically. The same thing can be said for food or sexual urges.Straggler writes: So it's all cultural/social as far as you are concerned?They call prostitution "the oldest profession". It has existed in every society and culture ever known to man. Do you think this is simple coincidence? Or does it tell us something rather fundamental about human psychology? I put it to you that if a particular behaviour is humanly universal throughout history then it is not coincidence at all. Rather it is the product of common human psychology. Ultimately a product of evolutionary "design". So - If we are going to give some sort of conscious intelligent designer credit for things like altruism - We should also blame them for things like the the obesity epidemic and the promiscuous nature of our species. At some point we became aware of right and wrong. Wright talks about non-zero-sum-logic and I think that he is correct in that, but I also don’t think it’s the whole story either, which he agrees is reasonable. I also think that we have evolved physically, but that we also evolved socially. If I understand him correctly, Dawkins agrees with that, and even suggested a mechanism for that called a meme. Sex and eating are good things and are essential to our continuing as a species. On the other hand both of these good things can be misused, and I am just saying that I believe that we have been given something that, as I say, we usually call a conscience that we can use to guide us to control these basic urges so that they aren’t misused. So yes, I do give God credit for giving us good things such as sex and food. I also agree that he has given us the choice of choosing to selfishly misuse and abuse these good things, as well as the capability of using them with wisdom and unselfishness.
Straggler writes: So why is it you want to eat that cheesecake when you know you should be eating that broccoli? Why is it that advertisers fill their advertisements with sexually attractive young women when their target market is married middle aged men? We have choices. But we are indisputably "designed" to find some choices more tempting than others.Who or what designed us that way? Well we know my answer, what is yours. Certainly some choices are more attractive than others but we have even been given the facility to change what becomes more appealing to us. For example, I’ve been married a long time. Yes a find young women attractive but the idea of being unfaithful to my wife, or of using some young woman for my own sexual gratification is repugnant to me.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: Or do we possess the ability to comprehend that what might be instinctively desirable is not always intellectually the best thing to do? I don't think we can master what appeals as such. But we can arguably confront that such instincts do not lead to the best longer term outcomes. Certainly that is a big part of it, but I also contend that we can do or not do things because we have come to the conclusion that it is simply right or wrong and we’ll adhere to that even if it has negative consequences for us.
Straggler writes: We can deny our desires - But that isn't the same as not having them. Yes, but, (there is always a but isn’t there ), by consciously denying ourselves over time we find that our desires gradually change. You’ve used food a lot as an example. People who change their eating habits in order to be healthier find it very difficult at first but easier as time passes. Eventually, so I’m told, their desire for the healthier food becomes stronger than their desire for the unhealthy food they’d given up. In other words, with practice our desires can change.
Straggler writes: Why do you think you find young women attractive? Is this an evolved trait? Is God responsible for it? I would say both but if you frame this a little differently and ask about the desire for sex it is a really interesting question. With no desire for sex the species would have died off long ago. How do you see the desire for sex evolving? It’s a bit of a chicken or egg question isn’t it.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: There seems to be a contradiction in your thinking.On one hand you say that you wholeheartedly subscribe to Wright's thesis. A thesis in which evolution is said to have a "purpose" exactly because morality, love, compassion, altruism etc. aid gene propagation and thus evolve as psychological traits. Traits that are the physical manifestation of non-zero-sum logic that is the source of Wright's "moral order". On the other hand you seem to be asserting a rather minimalist role for genes as the cause of human psychological traits and instead invoking moral conscience. But you can't on one hand deny the fundamental role of genes in human choices whilst on the other be advocating Wright's argument that the very morality you refer is a direct product of genetics and evolution. It doesn't make sense. As I understand Wright we are evolving not just physically but socially. As I understand him, the evolution of our moral order is social. I just don’t see him saying that this is strictly a product of genetics although I suppose there might be a genetic component.
Straggler writes: Not really. The details of how sexual reproduction originated aren't known for sure but there doesn't seem to be any fundamental logical problem to overcome. From your link there are different theories and any of them or none of them could be accurate. I do have to question the likelihood of any of them originating from a mindless process though.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Hi Straggler
I think that you have misunderstood my point in this. My theism isn’t the issue for me. My view in that regard is simply that God dun it. As a Theist I don’t care whether he used an exclusively genetic process, a social process or for that matter a one time infusing of the understanding of good and evil in mankind which has evolved from there. My interest here is simply from the POV of trying to understand the evolution of altruism from a natural perspective as best I can.
Straggler writes: The social component of his thesis is that increasing technology etc. allow us to expand the circle with which we apply non-zero-sum logic.Wright in The Evolution of God: "The expanding moral compass sponsored by the moral order, as we’ve seen, is a manifestation of non-zero-sumness, of the fact that cultural (and in particular technological) evolution leads more and more people to play non-zero-sum games at greater and greater distances." I agree.
GDR writes:
As I understand him, the evolution of our moral order is social. I just don’t see him saying that this is strictly a product of genetics although I suppose there might be a genetic component.Straggler writes: Then you have completely misunderstood it.You have been beguiled by Wright’s rather unique use of theistic sounding terminology. But conceptually you are poles apart. Darwinian evolution as the mechanism of moral progress is the central plank of his higher purpose and moral order argument. If you don’t accept a materialistic Darwinian account of human morality it is impossible for you to agree with his conclusions regarding divinity or a "moral axis" in any way that actually makes conceptual (as opposed to superficial borne from terminological conflation) sense. I can see how you get that from the quotes you used but he also said this.
quote: I also agree that Wright isn’t a theist let alone a Christian but he does say that his theories do allow for a deity.
quote:Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Christianity I’ll grant you but still not Richard Dawkins either. GDR writes:
From your link there are different theories and any of them or none of them could be accurate. I do have to question the likelihood of any of them originating from a mindless process though.Straggler writes: Why? It just goes back to my basic argument that I can’t muster up enough faith to believe that intelligence, morality can evolve from a non-intelligent non-moral source. I realize that this is an argument from incredulity but actually no more so than the argument of the person who says that he can’t believe that such an intelligence exists. Edited by GDR, : No reason given.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Straggler writes: Wright’s moral axis as a result of non-zero-sum interactions argument is fascinating and worthy of consideration. As someone who essentially considers themselves to be a moral relativist it has certainly caused me to reconsider the notion of objective moral truth. But his attempt to apply this to justify something that can meaningfully be called theism is rather contrived. And the semantic games he is forced to play in order to do this are appalling.If even a thinking and intelligent theist such as yourself initially failed to grasp the fact that Darwinian natural selection and genetic selfishness lie at the heart of Wright’s moral axis argument then I would suggest that by using overtly theistic terminology he is creating an entirely unnecessary barrier to effective communication of his ideas. The whole thesis is based on genetically selfish organisms (i.e. us) engaging in non-zero-sum outcomes with other equally genetically selfish organisms (i.e. other people). The following is another quote from The Evolution of God. This one is specifically about love as a product of non-zero-sum interactions. But the same principle could be applied to altruism, compassion or any of the other psychological traits we have been discussing. This particular quote lacks much of the semantic confusion that is present in many of his other quotes. I don’t see his polemic as being something that leads to theism. I think his language if anything leads to his self-proclaimed agnosticism or deism. I’m saying though that his theories allow for the possibility of theism. I think, and I emphasize think, that he is saying that there are two streams to evolution. There is the biological side and there is the social side, and that the two work together in tandem. The non-zero-sum argument makes a great deal of sense. In reference to your quote I still don’t see that dealing with altruism. If you are extrapolating his argument for love to altruism I think that is a stretch. I understand altruism is a zero-sum-game where the benefactor is the loser and the recipient is the winner. A non-zero-sum situation with kin is not the same thing.
Straggler writes: Firstly - What do you think he means by "deity"....? An intelligent prime mover with purpose.
Straggler writes: Secondly - Even my atheism allows for a deity. Nobody (even Dawkins) is saying such a thing is impossible. Yes, but he goes beyond that and thinks that there are indications that a deity actually exists. In a sense though, by that way of thinking all atheists are really agnostic.
Straggler writes: It depends what you mean by "higher purpose". If all that means is that there is potentially some form of objective morality derived from the Platonic existence of non-zero-sum logic then I think Dawkins, like Dennett, might well give that serious and not unsympathetic consideration. But I doubt they would use the rather misleading and inappropriate phrase "higher purpose" to describe it. Sure but even in the Platonic sense there is some form of external intelligence with purpose which fills the bill for a non-specific deity doesn’t it?
Straggler writes: So you cannot believe that intelligence can emerge as a result of increasing complexity but you are fine with the idea that some super-intelligence simply exists out of nowhere. Are you familiar with the phrase skyhooks and cranes? But the cranes had to start somewhere. I am fine with the idea of cranes but remember this all started with a non-physical, (as I understand it), singularity several billion years ago. You are saying that I am fine with the idea that super-intelligence exists out of nowhere, but you believe essentially the same thing. You believe that your intelligence came out of nowhere. It is my opinion that our intelligence did not come out of nowhere but is the emergent property of a greater intelligence that exists in a non-entropic multi-time dimensional state.
Straggler writes: All of the evidence indicates that intelligence, consciousness etc. are the product of material brains. On what basis do you conclude that intelligence can even exist without a material brain? Wright says this about consciousness:
quote: All the objective evidence just points to the fact that intelligence and consciousness exist. There are also theories, and some of them solid that show how they might have evolved. There is no evidence that indicates whether or not a prime mover exists that set all of this in motion. That is a purely subjective conclusion. Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Rahvin writes: Specifically, if "souls" actually existed, then that would mean that human consciousness is not tied to any specific portion of the physical body. If people can continue to think and be self-aware after death, with no brain at all, then why does brain damage have any effect at all? Why do psychoactive medications have an effect on personality and cognition? If souls exist, and people continue to be their conscious selves after the complete death or even total destruction of the brain, then why is Alzheimer's disease so devastating to a person's mental abilities?
Really good question so I'll just give you my understanding from my Christian perspective. I don't believe in an eternal non-physical existence. I believe that at the end of time as we know it we will have a recreated physicality. (Resurrected body) As to what happens in the meantime, I can't tell you except to say that it might be similar to the question of what happened before the Big Bang. All will become clear but not in this lifetime. That actually is the scriptural message. The idea of a disembodied existence is Platonism that crept into some Christian belief.Everybody is entitled to my opinion.
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