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Author Topic:   Jazzns' History of Belief
iano
Member (Idle past 1969 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 20 of 140 (626112)
07-27-2011 7:28 AM


Hi Jazzns,
I appreciate the sincerity with which you've approached the attempt to vocalise what for many must be an invisible (even to self) process. I've an observation of two to make in drawing a conclusion and wonder what you would say of them and it.
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In Romans, Paul details the reasons why salvation is something all people are in need of. He draws no distinction in this regard between the Jew (representing religious people down the ages) and the Gentile (representing irreligious people down the ages). He is pointing out that, for all their religion, religious people are as lost, blind, dead in their sin, separated from God, etc .. as the athiets, agnostics and pagans. And as dead-to-God people, are in need of salvation.
There are indications early in your story, that the kind of Christianity you encountered was cultural Christianity. In other words, you were a lost person (the starting position in Christianity) who became a religious lost person by upbringing.
You say:
quote:
In fact, the zest for the true wonder of the world is responsible for all the things I truly care about. People who fundamentally care about the truth of reality are responsible for nearly everything important in my life.
..whereas the chief concern of people both in the bible and who have come to faith in Christ is arguably holiness (where holiness might be expressed as 'a sense of having obtained moral perfection' or in some way, 'having the fact of your moral imperfection 'dealt with' so that you can rest in the matter').
If a person is a Christian through upbringing but not in fact (if they are what Paul calls a Jew), then the issue of holiness won't have arisen as the key concern in their life.
Have you ever encountered the problem of your own unholiness and if so, how is it dealt with now that it is not dealt with in Christ?
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quote:
Also, when you look at the practice of Christianity you find a disconnect with this sentiment that we should be waiting for salvation. Battling for human rights, institutionalizing marriage, and generally working for the future are fundamentally against the notion that we get from Jesus and Paul. According to them, our destiny is to be beat down by the powers of the world. We are not to build wealth and in fact if we do, we are instead destined for damnation
In his opening statements on the Mount, Jesus gives the characteristics of those who will enter the kingdom of God. Blessed are the poor in spirit*, he says, for theirs is the kingdom of God. It's not "blessed are the poor in money.."
The battle being talked of is, first and foremost, a spiritual one - although it will often manifest through the physical world. And the clear instructions are:
a) The Christian is expected to pick up their cross right here and now and follow the One who is battling against the powers of darkness right here and now.
b) Expect and prepare for opposition in the fight. The powers of the world are but the frontline of he in whose sway the world lies.
So struggle? Of course! The warfare motif in the bible is unmissable. Defeated? Never! The victory is already won. This doesn't mean ever-cheer. On the contrary, the struggle can be expected to get as dirty and ugly as any physical warfare - something which the psalms testify to (in their offering solace to the battle weary Christian). There is no hint of the resignation you're extracting from it.
The chief weapon to be employed is the one which works opposite to the chief weapon deployed by the Adversary. Love is to be used to counteract, overrule and dissolve hatred. Against that there is no law. And so we are of course to battle for human rights because the source behind human rights being trampled on is hatred. Just as the source behind the rape of the planet is hatred (manifest in selfishness). Just as the source of so much of my own sin lies in hatred (manifest so often in selfishness).
If you have a talent for wealth creation and use it in this fight (which doesn't preclude your enjoying wealth yourself) then so much the better. God doesn't mind if you have a Porsche.
My point isn't to engage in theological debate here. Rather, I would be suggesting that what I've written above is a relatively straightforward and orthodox Christian understanding of the place of struggle. Yet your understanding recognises none of this. Why?
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Given the above points, is there a case to be made for your potentially having shifted position from lost Jew to lost Gentile?
* poor in spirit being a description of the person whose chief concern has become their lack of holiness.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Jazzns, posted 07-27-2011 11:59 AM iano has not replied

  
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