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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: How can we regulate guns ... ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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What evidence could you possibly have for historical facts other than people saying they occurred? How about historical evidence? Documents, news reports, contemporary writings of people. We have all those things for the Beer Hall Putsch, Kristallnacht and the The Night of the Long Knives. But there does not seem to be anything about the time Hitler used gun registration records to round people up.That would have been stupid as he had the support of many Germans. He ascended to the Chancellorship through legal means. Gun owners were not round up. As a matter of fact gun ownership was expanded in 1938. Ownership laws were loosened so that age for legal possession was lowered from 20 to 18 and it completely lifted restriction on all guns except handguns, as well as on ammunition. If I owned the books all I could do is quote them and give their sources.
But they don't give sources do they.
What would convince you that historically genocides are linked to gun laws? Anything?
Original sources.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 365 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined:
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Faith, although I know you do not trust Wikipedia, because the filthy liberals () have gotten hold of it, but it does not agree with your statement that the Nazis made a confiscation effort (except from the Jews), nor do many other sites.
The first gun laws that were placed on the books in Germany actually took place after the First World War, far before the Nazis came to power. After the Treaty of Versailles, Germany enacted the Regulations on Weapons Ownership in 1919. This law declared that:
All firearms, as well as all kinds of firearms ammunition, are to be surrendered immediately
However, this law was enacted by the Weimar Republic, not by the Nazis and this is the exact strict gun laws that you are speaking of. The next law that was passed was in 1920 and was entitles the Law on Disarmament of the People. This law simply put the laws required by the Treaty of Versailles into effect. The next law that was passed was in 1928 and was called the Law on Firearms and Ammunition. This was the first reduction in the restrictions that had been placed on firearms in Germany after World War I. According to the wiki, this law stated that:
Germans could possess firearms, but they were required to have separate permits to do the following: own or sell firearms, carry firearms (including handguns), manufacture firearms, and professionally deal in firearms and ammunition.
Seems like the restrictions are becoming less and less and guess what, we still are not even to the Nazi rise to power which occurred in 1933. So, these strict laws (which were loosened as time progressed) were not Nazi laws, so what exactly did the Nazis do when it came to gun control In 1938, the Germans passed the 1938 German Weapons Act. This new law, created by the Nazi Regime, superseded the Law on Firearms and Ammunition. However, opposite of your claim, this law relaxed the restrictions on guns even more. According to the Wiki:
Gun restriction laws applied only to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. Writes Prof. Bernard Harcourt of the University of Chicago, "The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition." The groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement expanded. Holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and NSDAP members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions. Prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted. The age at which persons could own guns was lowered from 20 to 18. The firearms carry permit was valid for three years instead of one year. Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or dealing of firearms and ammunition. So, it appears that the Germans had more gun rights under the Nazis than they did under the previous regime. In fact, rifles and shotguns did not even require a permit! The one stipulation was that Jewish individuals were not allowed to possess weapons, which was because the process of blaming them for all German problems was under way. However, where were these upstanding armed German citizens when the regime began to take their friends and neighbors away? It seems like it was not gun control which led to genocide. Rather, a large effort of getting a country to fall for group think and utilizing propaganda to control the hearts and minds of a people that had been forced into submission and a feeling of weakness with the previous treaty they had signed. References:Gun control in Germany - Wikipedia The Hitler gun control lie | Salon.com The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4
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Oh yeah I for got to mention this.
The quote from Hitler that you will see on all your right wing propaganda sites. quote: Is bogus. There is no evidence he said anything like this. Made up, not real, a lie.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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How about the Fort Hood shootings that took place on an army base?
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Somehow, needing to be constantly surrounded by the secret service and other armed guards has been distorted into being some kind of privilege rather than the actual nightmare it truly is.
I'm sure there is a short, catchy way to demonstrate this that someone will come up with. I'm not artsy-craftsy enough to do it, but isn't it obvious that nobody sane wants their children forted up 24 X 7?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Well by the same reasoning that every child deserves an armed guard because the President has one, every citizen deserves an Air Force 1 because the President has one.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Pass a law that murder using a gun merits life in prison without the possibility of parole. My guess is that current laws only prescribe this penalty for first degree murder of any type. Are you suggesting that, for example, 2nd degree murder with a gun should result in life imprisonment?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Would never stand up to judicial review anyway.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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You - and other gun advocates - Really need to decide what the basis for your position is. Because at the moment you are relentlessly and shamelessly flip flopping between several different positions. One minute disputing that there is any correlation between gun prevalence and homicide rates at all, the next minute disputing that correlation is suggestive of any causal relationship between these factors and the next minute asserting that the correlation between these factors is the result of homicidal people causing increased gun numbers.
It really smacks of making any argument at all to defend that which you have already decided. You need to get your story straight. Because at the moment it looks like you are just saying anything in order stop yourself from drawing a conclusion about guns that you won't like. With that in mind please answer the following: 1) Do you accept a correlation between gun prevalence and homicide rates? 2) Do you accept that this correlation isn't just random and that it is in fact due to a causal relationship between the two things? 3) What do you think the nature of the causal relationship between these factors is? (i.e. what causes what)
CS writes: Are you trying to tell me that you are not interested in evidenced based conclusions? I am absolutely in favour of evidence based conclusions. Would you support the full range of measures implemented in New York, including gun regulations, being implemented in other areas to see if similarly positive results can be achieved?
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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What evidence could you possibly have for historical facts other than people saying they occurred? And if many people say it that ought to carry some weight. Yikes. It took awhile, but I was able to convince my kids that "They say" isn't a citation.
If I owned the books all I could do is quote them and give their sources. And yet giving us a source is the absolute minimum. When the sources are provided, that is when the vetting begins. What you are asking us to do is just to accept your impression of what some unknown person wrote. Not going to happen. Perhaps this is more of the stuff that ought to be on your blog.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison. If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Jon Inactive Member |
Even true irrelevancies are still irrelevancies, RAZD.
Love your enemies!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The books themselves are sources, so are the reviews and so is the video. These are not your kids, these are people who studied the issues.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No, the idea is that if armed guards are considered to be necessary to make anyone safe then they are the obvious solution to the school shooter problem. This has nothing to do with needing air force one.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I didn't quote it so you're lying to make an issue of it in relation to anything I said.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I am well aware that the Weimar Republic put the gun laws in place that Hitler made use of later. Where have I said anything different?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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