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Author | Topic: Addiction By Definition | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
An addiction is a counterfeit "need". According to my opinion, that is perfectly succinct. I think its scientifically accurate as well. But it doesn't fit with the proposed definition that the counterfeit need has to cause some kind of life problem - but I don't agree with that definition anyways. Nor do I understand why its being pushed.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Cat's Eye writes:
Yeah, I'm leaning away from the "problem" approach myself. An addiction is only a problem if it's a problem but it's still an addiction even if it isn't a problem.
But it doesn't fit with the proposed definition that the counterfeit need has to cause some kind of life problem - but I don't agree with that definition anyways.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
satan could hypothetically be an addiction. He essentially is a counterfeit need yet is only a problem for some. Personally, I know in my mind that I better stick with real needs and avoid counterfeit ones---if only for my mental health and conscience.
Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If he was real, he could be. What about the need to blame somebody besides ourselves? Would that be an addiction too?
satan could hypothetically be an addiction. He essentially is a counterfeit need yet is only a problem for some.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Religion can be an addiction, I think. Of course I'M NOT addicted! What about the need to blame somebody besides ourselves? Would that be an addiction too?Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
No shit, that's why I challenged your definition. It didn't actually define, it just set up a taughtology. There is no tautology. There is just a need to define "problem". I did not bother simply because I thought we could agree on what's a problem. But we did discuss example problems like lung cancer when you felt free to tell me that smoking caused you no problems. As an example of where that was actually done, I point to the definition Phat cited regarding addiction to psychoactive materials.
You sure about that? I think nicotine is psychoactive, and that there is a non-zero amount of intoxication. No. I am not sure. I don't have an opinion on whether tobacco is addictive. I'm just applying the facts you give me to the definition. Incidentally the definition is not my own. I lifted it from the definition used by psychologists to describe a number of addictions including gambling and alcoholism.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
or two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here". You've never starved your body of vitamin C. If you do manage to do that you will feel some ill effects. You might even manage to get your mind to understand that the lack of vitamin C is the cause. But if the vitamin example C bothers you, just substitute oxygen.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This is only my 25th day of full sobriety from my addiction. I can report that I already feel a resensitivity to my feelings, as I find that I laugh and cry easier than before. Subjectively I can confirm the fact that my addiction served to numb and/or minimize pain and awareness.
The experts claim that a "flood of feelings" won't appear evident until after 180 days of sobriety has passed so I await that event as I move forward one day at a time.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)reality is not something you take a vote on.~jar |
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But if the vitamin example C bothers you, just substitute oxygen. Both of those things are required to survive, silly.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Both of those things are required to survive, silly. Is that excluded using your definition? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Is that excluded using your definition? Uh, yeah:
quote: and:
quote: You replied to that message... twice. In Message 36, you wrote:
quote: A number of addictions, but not all of them. And those are a little different. I've been mainly focusing on chemical addictions. The above is more for behavior addictions, and with those it does make sense to include problem-causing as part of the definition. With gambling, there's no chemical you are intaking that you can become addicted to. And even with alcoholism its hard to determine if the person really is addicted to the chemical, or if they just really like to party. Without a particular "drug" to point the finger at, we have to define the addiction with when the behavior becomes a problem. And I don't have a problem with that. But I do have a problem with limiting the term 'addiction' to only those things that cause problems, like you originally did:
What I think works is an operational definition. If you have a habit that is causing problems in your life, then it is an addiction. That doesn't work as an operational definition, in general, because you can be addicted to specific chemicals even though they don't cause problems in your life. Defining it your way is more for behavioral addictions, rather than chemical ones. It simply doesn't cover all the bases.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Q: Do you suffer from addiction?
A: No. I enjoy it. I have recently been studying the philosophy of the group known as Rational Recovery. They make a lot of sense!
RR writes: Thus, we have met the "enemy" and he is us! Our primitive mind will never see any problem with any sort of self indulgence.
In effect, you have two separate "brains" within your head. One is primitive, similar to the brain of a dog or a horse. This we call the midbrain. It is basically the brain of a beast, and its only purpose is to survive. The "beast brain" generates survival appetites that drive the rest of the body toward what it demands, such as oxygen, food, sex, and fluids. But another brain sits on top of the beast brain, the cerebral cortex. This "new brain," or neocortex, allows human beings to be conscious, to think, to have language, and to solve problems. Your neocortex is "you," and you can override any appetite, even for oxygen. Thus...Rational Recovery uses logic and an acknowledgement towards personal responsibility found only in our higher brain.They have a system known as AVRT. (Addictive Voice Recognition Therapy) Basically, however...they agree with you in that Addiction is a voluntary behavior (such as drinking alcohol or using drugs) that persists against your own own better judgment. Thus, addiction cannot be diagnosed or attributed to you by others, including physicians. It is solely up to you to decide if your drinking threatens or harms others and yourself. You must decide now whether continuing your addictive pleasures is worth the destruction that will likely result. In other words, you are free to choose between drinking and not drinking between the high life and family life, between right and wrong. The point is that we are responsible for our addictions and bad habits and we also have the power within us to cease any addiction...provided we are honest with ourselves and ready. If you believe there is nothing wrong with your own drinking/using, then you are free to continue, provided you are willing to accept the likely consequences. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Cat Sci writes: This observation further supports the RR hypothesis. An addiction by definition is actively courted and desired by our primitive brain. For one, I need vitamin C to survive. For two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here". On the other hand, I do not need nicotine nor caffeine to survive but on many occasions my body has told me to get some so it'll stop feeling like shit.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Cat Sci writes: This observation further supports the RR hypothesis. An addiction by definition is actively courted and desired by our primitive brain. For one, I need vitamin C to survive.For two, never once has my body told me: "I kinda feel like shit, you should get some vitamin C in here". On the other hand, I do not need nicotine nor caffeine to survive but on many occasions my body has told me to get some so it'll stop feeling like shit. Yeah, the RR has a waaay better approach than that "powerlessness" crap that 12-step uses. I'm glad you found something better. How's it coming along?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Cat Sci writes: Ive had ups and downs. No real track record of sobriety longer than 60-70 day runs. I am learning how to recognize the addictive voice....its amazing what one can talk themselves into...and also how primitive, stupid, and selfish the inner logic is. I'm glad you found something better. How's it coming along? As of this writing, I have about a solid month under my belt, and am again trying to go beyond the 60-72 day period that seems to be my limit so far. Its not the length of sobriety so much as it is the total number of days of sobriety overall versus the total number of relapsing(irresponsible,rebellious) days of addiction hat make up the big picture. Being honest with myself, I find that I am addicted to action and chaos versus responsibility and order. It also didn't help that during my last relapse I won $5000.00. Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)
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