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Author | Topic: Is Christianity Evil? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
In the Multiculturalism thread, Tangle and I had a brief discussion about religion's relationship to evil. It was his position that:
quote: In objection to this I raised the point that Christianity began as a very pacific religion that only became 'primitive and destructive' when it entwined itself with the secular components of governing an empire (i.e., the religion became used as a tool to pursue secular goals inconsistent with traditional Christian belief and teachings). I'd like to discuss this further with a focus on Christianity. It is my position that there is no basis whatsoever for Tangle's blanket claim that religions are all inherently evil, secularism inherently good, and the former only pacified by exposure to the latter.Love your enemies!
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AdminPhat Inactive Member |
Thread copied here from the Is Christianity Evil? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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Jon writes: I raised the point that Christianity began as a very pacific religion that only became 'primitive and destructive' when it entwined itself with the secular components of governing an empire (i.e., the religion became used as a tool to pursue secular goals inconsistent with traditional Christian belief and teachings). Much of what poses as Christianity today---in Western Culture,specifically the United States...seems to be one giant infomercial on how to prosper,be blessed, and gain a thirty sixty hundredfold return on your investment. I see it as so much deeper...but only in person---with other Christians. God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Jon Inactive Member |
Though this thread was promoted to a rather soft forum, I still hope we can have an intelligent, evidence-based discussion.
I know there can be disagreement on the finer points of what constitutes Christianity and what it means for something to be evil. But I really don't want this thread to devolve into a bunch of emotional drivel about what people feel in their souls or other such nonsense.Love your enemies!
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I know there can be disagreement on the finer points of what constitutes Christianity and what it means for something to be evil. But I really don't want this thread to devolve into a bunch of emotional drivel about what people feel in their souls or other such nonsense. Point taken. I suppose the first question--then---is whether or not this so-called evil is logical. Is it the fault of the doctrines of Christianity specifically or is it the fault of those who attempt to misuse a religion for personal gain?God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Jon Inactive Member
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I suppose the first question--then---is whether or not this so-called evil is logical. Is it the fault of the doctrines of Christianity specifically or is it the fault of those who attempt to misuse a religion for personal gain? That's not the first question, that's the question. This thread is specifically for exploring whether Christianity was a benign religion usurped by secular evil or whether it was always evil and only pacified recently through contact with Enlightenment secularism. My position is pretty clear: there is nothing to convince me that early Christianity was an evil religion and plenty to suggest that its vices arose as the result of its earthly (= secular) involvement in running an empire. My position is that Christianity offers an example that fully contradicts Tangle's claim.Love your enemies!
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Sheesh. A least give a tiny amount of context...
My only concern is the harm that these ludicrous beliefs can do and now it's very clear that all flavours of Christianity - no matter who defines them - are no longer anything like the problem they were to other faiths a few hundred years ago. For that we have rationalism and secular law to thank. Left to their own devices, religions would be as primitive and destructive as extreem Islam is today. Christianity has been tamed, Islam has not, yet. It's clear that religions cause divisions between individuals, groups and countres and the more ferthant the belief, the more damage they cause. Both history and present day activities show that plainly.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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saab93f Member (Idle past 1423 days) Posts: 265 From: Finland Joined:
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What constitutes evil? For me the basic premise of Christianity portrays exactly that - that in order to be saved from eternal damnation, one has to believe in something there is nothing tangible about. One can be an extremely good human being but since reason denies bowing to a supernatural entity, it is all in vain.
Another thing that for me is evil is the mental somersaults (some) believers have to make in order to justify the horrendous, atrocious and capricious deity of the Old Testament and somehow claim that this omnipotent God is pure love. Then again, the same God found it best to fulfill his plan by having his son killed (and then resurrected). Christians have acted (and do) benignly but for what - out of fear or out or true goodness?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: It's clear that religions cause divisions between individuals, groups and countries and the more fervent the belief, the more damage they cause. Both history and present day activities show that plainly. Perhaps a question to be raised is why the very idea of belief in general causes an automatic division. Not everything imaginable can be evidence based. And that's assuming that there is no evidence for the premises which Christianity affirms.
saab93f writes: For me the basic premise of Christianity portrays exactly that - that in order to be saved from eternal damnation, one has to believe in something there is nothing tangible about. Jon writes: I vote benign. This thread is specifically for exploring whether Christianity was a benign religion usurped by secular evil or whether it was always evil and only pacified recently through contact with Enlightenment secularism. Is that a baseless assertion that is emotional rather than logical? Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky Edited by Phat, : Benign BelieversGod created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Jon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU Do you believe that the root or cornerstone of all religions is our tribal, goupish or hivish natures? Or do believe that the root of religions is a God, and if so, why did God not start all religions instead of letting other diverse religions get started by some other God? RegardsDL Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Jon
Would you say that Christians are idol worshipers? RegardsDL
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Greatest I am Member (Idle past 302 days) Posts: 1676 Joined: |
Jon
Are you thinking of that transition in the days of Constantine or further back to the days of Flavian family. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJgvws0ZYUE RegardsDL
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Perhaps a question to be raised is why the very idea of belief in general causes an automatic division. Not everything imaginable can be evidence based. There are many ways to conflict. If those beliefs say that only they know the truth and the way, whilst others say that their belief is the only truth and the way, then you're going to have a fight. Particularly if you find those beliefs in competition for your own. If there is a tribe in the next county that believes something different to you, you can label them heretics and treat them as an inferior, inhuman, class, demonise them and ultimately give yourself a licence to do anything nasty you can think of to them. If you have an ambiguous book that can be interpreted in many ways, you create disagreement, schism and at worst, civil wars. If benign religious ideas are adopted by cynical people and exploited for their own benefit empires and institutions are create power and wealth which last for generations. When ancient myths and superstitions created by religious 'thinkers' are demonstrably at odds with objective observations of our world, the organisations reliant on those myths will attempt to prevent the real truth from surfacing to maintain their positions. Need I go on? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
So Christianity isn't evil; cynical Christians are evil.
If benign religious ideas are adopted by cynical people and exploited for their own benefit empires and institutions are create power and wealth which last for generations.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Not quite. Some Christians are 'evil' and some Christian ideas are 'evil' (tho' that's word is contentious in itself.) It's a perfect storm.
examples of 'evil' Christian ideas are many - only people that subscribe to their brand can get to heaven- babies that die before being christened can't get to heaven - contraception is a mortal sin for which you go to hell - people are born with sin - women are inferior creatures - the church can be super rich whilst taking money from the poor and preaching that you must give to the poor - you can buy indulgences - prayer works - heretics can be lawfully killed - you can wage holy wars and so onJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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