Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8803 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-22-2017 6:42 PM
377 online now:
jar, JonF, Meddle, Modulous (AdminModulous) (4 members, 373 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Happy Birthday: DC85
Post Volume:
Total: 822,856 Year: 27,462/21,208 Month: 1,375/1,714 Week: 218/365 Day: 60/62 Hour: 4/6

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1718192021
22
Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Stile
Member
Posts: 3037
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 316 of 319 (814523)
07-10-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
07-10-2017 3:14 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:

Any time someone tries to tell you about it you discount their testimony.

I've never discounted any testimony.

I just put it in the pile of similar testimony.
Your testimony about demons goes right beside the testimony of mental illness.

The testimony of mental illness is currently larger.
Just as the testimony for germs and bacteria is currently larger than demons causing sickness.

and why would you see demon possession in them when you've been convinced otherwise?

I'd see demon possession anywhere you can actually show it.
You seem to admit that you cannot show it, though.

This doesn't mean I won't accept it if you could show it.
It just means that you are unable to show it.

You're awfully sure of yourself for someone who has zip evidence for your assertions.

I apologize.
Did you know that a lot of psychopaths can be identified as being a psychopath simply by looking at their brains on imaging technology?
Did you know that most of the 'serial murderers' you speak of are also psychopaths?
Did you know that some one who is not a psychopath can become one if they suffer brain damage that ends up making their brain look similar to other psychopaths?

That is very strong evidence for mental illness as a function of the brain.

Did you know that DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder) is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?
Did you know that Schizophrenia is understood, diagnosed and successfully treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care?

If mental issues like DID and Schizophrenia could not be treated/mitigated/controlled in almost any willing patient, given the proper care... I would not give them such credence.

However, since they can, why do you not see that as evidence of mental illness being affected by brain function?

I tried to be a help to him in the years before he died and became afraid of him because of his strange ideas.

What sort of help did you try to give him?
Did you help him seek drug treatment? How many different ones did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different types as suggested by a psychiatrist, each taken for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you help him seek therapy? How many different therapists did you try? (If the answer is anything less than '5 different therapists, each for at least 6 months' than it's likely such treatment didn't help much).
Did you try to help him yourself? (If you did without the proper medical attention, you likely didn't help much. Not because you're not qualified, but because - as a sister - your relationship to him would already discount how helpful you could actually be.)

There were many things in the past that are now known to be... less than helpful... the improvements in the field have been rather large in the last many years.

Sometimes psychotics get "commands" to murder people and that sort of thing, sometimes to kill themselves, or their children perhaps. I may extrapolate from these extremes to less dangerous ideation, but there is plenty of bizarre ideation in many mental illnesses that I think should be considered to be demonic.

Those examples are not extremes.
Those examples are not bizarre.
Those examples are not demonic.

The idea that you seem to think so indicates that perhaps you were not exposed to the wealth of information around the subject of mental illness available in certain areas today. It most likely was not your fault, either.

I knew a lot about psychology and I absolutely despised brain theory

Either those 2 things meant very different things when they were presented to you, or your 'psychology knowledge' is basically useless as the field now understands.

Otherwise brain has nothing to do with how the mind works.

Then how do you explain changes in how the mind works when the brain is changed? In the same person, even?
How do you explain people with very similar 'minds' when their brains are very similar using imaging technology?

These things are very strong evidence that the 'mind' is specifically based (and likely "only" based) on the brain.

Funny, I'd say that focusing on physical causes wastes the important time needed to understand the supernatural nature of some phenomena.

You can say that all you'd like.

The recent advances in being-able-to-help-people has increased dramatically once we understood how important the brain and physical causes are for the mind.
It is staggering and horrific how many people are helped today with this understanding vs. how many people were... discarded... before, without it.

The evidence, again, seems to be against your opinion.

Physical components do not at all eliminate spiritual causes.

They seem to eliminate "demon possession" just fine.
In fact, the more and more physical components we study and learn about and help people with... the less and less "demon possession" we seem to run into.

You seem to think that this evidence indicates that more demon possessions are occurring and that the demons have just moved into a completely covert mode such that they can choose to no longer be detected.

Sounds a bit too much like back-tracking and covering up your favourite explanation in the face of being able to help people who need it.

Why not just help more people?
Why not just accept the ideas that help more people?

If those ideas start helping less people... I promise... I'll trample them into the ground with you.
But so far, these ideas are just helping more and more and more people. Loved ones, like your brother, are getting help because of these ideas. As long as it works, why not let these people get help?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 3:14 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26611
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 317 of 319 (814525)
07-10-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Stile
07-10-2017 4:06 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
What kind of "help" are you talking about? Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness. My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Stile, posted 07-10-2017 4:06 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Stile, posted 07-11-2017 9:10 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 319 by Diomedes, posted 07-11-2017 9:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3037
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 318 of 319 (814625)
07-11-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
07-10-2017 4:12 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
Faith writes:

What kind of "help" are you talking about?

The kind where people get better.

Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness.

No, they don't.

Mostly they use a combination of drugs and therapy to assess and mitigate each person's individual needs.
Mental illness isn't like broken arms. You can't put the same cast on every arm. Every different person will need a cast in a different area (sometimes multiple areas) to help their individually 'broken arm' when talking about mental health.

My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.

Why do you think a demon would be affected by drugs your brother took?

We've already established that your knowledge (and personal experiences) with mental illness are outdated and largely obsolete.

This is the time to learn how it actually works.
Everyone agrees that doing things the way you just described is a horrible way to treat people.

The treatment and care of patients dealing with mental illness has grown leaps and bounds from what you are describing.

And it definitely has nothing to do with demons.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 668
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 319 of 319 (814626)
07-11-2017 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
07-10-2017 4:12 PM


Re: Demons do not exist
What kind of "help" are you talking about? Mostly they just drug people into submissiveness.

Depends on what type of treatment is involved. For types of clinical mental illness, it is usually therapy with some drugs potentially being used. In other cases such as inflammation of the brain caused by something like rabies or encephalitis, it could be antiviral medications or anti-bacterials.

My brother was killed by a strange self-inflicted "accident" right after they upped his meds.

I am sorry for your loss, but I somehow doubt any 'demon' had anything to do with that. Why would a demon even be susceptible to medications provided to someone? If they are some 'ethereal' entity, they would not be affected by anything in our 'mortal realm'.

To be honest, these types of views are not only anachronistic, but quite dangerous. If anyone remembers the Virginia Tech shooter; someone who was obviously very mentally ill. Well, it turns out his mother sought help for her son -- from her church. Yes, that is correct. Instead of taking him to see medical professionals, she instead had her priest perform an exorcism. And we all saw how that turned out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 4:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1718192021
22
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017