|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: If, however, wine repeatedly changed into blood at the moment it was chanted over by a priest during the religious service - as Catholics claim it does - and we could properly test that it had done so, then it would be a miracle. By definition. Yes, I understand that is your assertion. But again, you show no evidence that it was a miracle or a supernatural event. You have repeated several times that there is no known way to test the supernatural. If wine was turned into blood, whether by incantation or some other means, it simply is evidence that it is possible to turn wine into blood. A Miracle is defined as a supernatural event, something impossible in the natural world. If something happens in the natural world then it is not impossible. That refutes the second part of the definition. What is missing though is any evidence to show it is a supernatural event. You might believe it is a supernatural event but there is no evidence to show it is a supernatural event. All we have at that point is an unexplained event. Reality trumps even definitions.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: Well if natural causes have been ruled out, what is left? But there is no way to rule out ALL natural causes, only those natural causes we know.
Tangle writes: A miracle is where science says - 'that's impossible'. Only piss poor science would say that; reasonable sciences says "That is impossible given today's knowledge and technology."
Tangle writes:
LoL It's the cause of the miraculous event that is impossible not the event itself. Blood and wine are everyday materials. They don't change naturally from one to the other. For that we require an supernatural intervention. Too funny. We do not know anyway that could happen. But we also don't know of anyway to detect supernatural intervention. If it happened all we can say is that it did happen.
Tangle writes: If you wish it to be clearer, if the Empire State Building was turned into an over-ripe banana by a priest saying a magic word, it would be a miracle would it not? If Trump uttered a truth that would be a miracle. If you car never needed gas again despite travelling thousands of miles etc etc. There are an infinite absurd situation that if they happened would be called miraculous. YOU might call them miracles. That does not mean they are miracles or even evidence of miracles.
Tangle writes: But you can't argue that the concept of a miracle doesn't. But I have not made that argument and in fact have said several times that people can and do label things as a miracle. Labels do exist.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: So if the Empire State Building was turned into a banana by a preacher uttering a magic word that would not be a miracle. It would not be evidence of a miracle. It would be evidence that it happened.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: And the word we use when the something that has happened has broken all natural laws iswait for ita miracle. And yes, I agree, you might use that label. I might even use that label. But it is still nothing but a label and not evidence of anything other than our ignorance.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Oxford University Press will publish most anything they deem saleable.
But again, read what you write.
kbertsche writes: But I've heard Hoffmeier speak and present evidence for the likely route of the Exodus. Note that claiming the Exodus even happened IS a speculative vague assertion as is any possible route they might have taken. But any route they might have taken would still be through Egypt and areas controlled by Egypt. The loss of a Pharaoh and army and horses and chariots and armaments and supplies is also something that would not go unnoticed by the other super-powers of the day and yet there is no evidence such an event happened. The need to replace all the things lost is also something that would not go unnoticed by the other super-powers of the day and yet there is no evidence such an event happened. All of the super-powers of the period were creating written inventories and commercial transactions at the time yet there is no indication of a transaction "One thousand horses with chariots plus two million sets of armaments to replace items lost on the northern front" or "Oh, and new Pharaoh needed, experience preferred."
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus is the story itself. It is written and presented in a classic serial folktale style, perfect as a way to extend the stay of the storyteller night after night; to get fed and bed another day; a classic Saturday matinee short before the movie.
It is "So kids, remember last week Pharaoh said he would let the people go. Let's look in and see what's happening this week. "Not so fast!" said God. "I will change Pharaoh's heart." So suddenly Pharaoh thought "I know I said all the people could go but for some strange reason I feel a need to change my mind. Run tell Moshe to hold up, he's got some 'splainin to do." Moshe and his brother Ron and sister Miri knew what had happened. "It was God again, I just know it. He must have yet another magic trick to show us but you know, things like locust and frogs and red water get really old after awhile. Why won't he just accept what the Pharaoh says and we can get on our way?" Come back next week to find out if Moshe and Ron and Miri get to go Walkabout again and what magic trick will God do now?
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Cant a guy get to actually believe in a Creator of all seen and unseen Who has time to listen? Of course they can and have. In fact most of the stories about God regardless of which religion involves a God that interacts with humans. Heracles is a great example of not just a God who had time to listen but for some pillow talk as well. Ganesha is the remover of obstacles. Hermes and Mercury were messengers constantly carrying message between humans and gods. The God of Genesis 2&3 had time to listen and even make clothes. It's likely the authors of those stories believed very strongly that there were gods who had time to listen.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Couldn't be because there is an omnipotent intelligence who created the physical universe and can use it however He wants. It could be but so far there has never been any evidence that He exists or can do anything or is very intelligent.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: You talk like that and pretend to be a Christian. Yuck. I don't pretend to be a Christian Faith, I am a Christian. Once again reality shows you are simply wrong.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: I'm trying to get beyond the silly definitional tactics to the scientific one - what kind of evidence would it take for science to throw its hands in the air and say ok, not only is this unexplained but it's also inexplicable? I cannot think of any such possible evidence.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I cannot imagine any test that might lead to a conclusion that a miracle happened.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No, you have not provided any evidence of a miracle. Like Faith, you have made claims but offered nothing in the way of evidence of a miracle.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: Many things in science are established with indirect evidence. The ToE was established that way. The pieces form a picture. In this case it would be the God theory. Except there is still no evidence of anything that is not natural. While the TOE actually explained a process, method, model, procedure to explain the evidence a God theory explains noting, cannot be used to make predictions, cannot be tested, cannot be verified. Sorry but you still have presented no examples that show a miracle happened.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: If we had all the evidence I've spoken of in bridge and mountain moving, regrown limbs and wine and blood stuff it would be difficult to arrive at any other conclusion. Not true. It might be difficult for YOU to arrive at any other conclusion but I can conclude very easily that the evidence is unexplained.
|
|||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: That's how we know it's miraculous - we're dealing with things within our knowledge, basic, simple things, yet these things are not behaving naturally. We'd say that these events are not only unexplained but are also inexplicable. Again, not true. You may say they are inexplicable but I would say "They are unexplained and right now inexplicable".
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024