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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ringo writes: You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause. I just want to say again (last time I replied to Tangle) that I am still fascinated with this discussion, that I'm just looking for a point to jump in. I don't think it's time yet, but I do want to say that Tangle isn't the "only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition." For example, I'm having difficulty with the distinction between "is a supernatural intervention" and "is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural intervention." and sometimes I'm not sure you guys are even talking about the same things, for instance where you say that all that is necessary for "something to be CALLED a 'miracle'" is "ignorance of the cause," which doesn't sound like much of a miracle. I don't understand how someone just seeing something, like the Virgin Mary, could call it a miracle with any kind of assurance or confidence. If Pike's Peak suddenly moved from Colorado to Kansas, that's something that anyone could judge a miracle just by looking at it, but what is usually deemed a miracle is either an unexplained recovery from illness or something seen, and we know how bad eyewitness testimony is. --Percy
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
It's the same as the distinction between "the Pentateuch was written by Moses" and "The Pentateuch is ATTERIBUTED to Moses." I'm having difficulty with the distinction between "is a supernatural intervention" and "is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural intervention." It's the same as the distinction between "Christmas gifts are brought by Santa" and "Christmas gifts are ATTERIBUTED to Santa."
Percy writes:
A flashlight is a miracle to people who don't know how it works.
... for instance where you say that all that is necessary for "something to be CALLED a 'miracle'" is "ignorance of the cause," which doesn't sound like much of a miracle.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause. You've plucked a definition that includes the word 'attributed' and latched onto it like a dying man. We both know that we're talking about supernatural intervention - if it's not supernatural intervention or you just think it is, it's not what we're discussing. This is what the entire world thinks is a miracle and what I'm talking about.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
The word appeared in your definition too. It may be "ascribed" or "deemed" in some definitions but it isn't hard to find. You've plucked a definition that includes the word 'attributed' and latched onto it like a dying man. Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: The word appeared in your definition too. It may be "ascribed" or "deemed" in some definitions but it isn't hard to find. You're still grasping at definitional straws. We all know what a miracle is, it's a supernatural intervention, it breaks natural/scientific laws. Now perhaps you'll deal with flying brigdes and moving mountains.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I don't understand how someone just seeing something, like the Virgin Mary, could call it a miracle with any kind of assurance or confidence. ... What if three children claimed to see her? What if a whole crowd then gathered and also saw her? What if she was heard to speak to them about world politics? Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ringo writes: Percy writes: I'm having difficulty with the distinction between "is a supernatural intervention" and "is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural intervention." It's the same as the distinction between "the Pentateuch was written by Moses" and "The Pentateuch is ATTRIBUTED to Moses." It's the same as the distinction between "Christmas gifts are brought by Santa" and "Christmas gifts are ATTRIBUTED to Santa." It's not the English that I'm having a problem with, but the reason behind drawing the distinction when you're talking about the supernatural. I can see now by what you say next that it's just another way for you to say, in essence, "We might *think* it's supernatural, but it's not, it's just something we don't understand yet."
A flashlight is a miracle to people who don't know how it works. Perhaps you and Tangle are interested in talking about two different things. You want to treat miracles as natural phenomena that we don't understand yet. Tangle wants to talk about real miracles, like what Faith considers a miracle. If that's correct then somebody's got to make a move. One of you will have to say, "Well, I don't agree with the way you're approaching this, but for the sake of discussion let me follow along with you for a ways." I think you both agree that miracles aren't real. But your position refuses to consider the concept of a true miracle, and so would only result in a discussion of how science expands our knowledge. Tangle accepts the concept (but not the reality) of a true miracle, thinks he knows how to define it ("breaks the laws of nature"), and wants to discuss why miracles aren't real from a scientific perspective, which seems much more appropriate for this thread. Sorry if I've got this all wrong. If I get feedback I'll take another swing at it. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: What if three children claimed to see her [the Virgin Mary]? What if a whole crowd then gathered and also saw her? Did anyone in the crowd think to pull out their cell phone and record a video? --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I think the last apparition preceded cell phones, but I also think apparitions can't be photographed. In fact I think they can only be seen with the "spiritual eye," or the "third eye" and I think this because one film I watched of the children looking at "Mary" showed them walking backwards with their eyes rolled back in their heads the way many Hindu gurus are often depicted. I think it is how you look when you are looking through the "third eye" which is supposedly located in the forehead. You get to see demons that way. I've never wanted to see demons, the idea creeps me out, and the experience I did have was not something I sought. But if you would like to test the idea I think if you meditated quietly on the idea and and concentrated very hard and rolled your eyes back in your head maybe you could do it.
abe: Seeing apparitions and other demonic miracles is what I've been calling petty or second rate miracles. God's miracles occur in real physical space and can be seen by the naked eye. So can some demonic miracles though, such as bleeding statues; they're just not on a par with God's miracles as to meaning or presentation. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Faith writes: " and I think this because one film I watched of the children looking at "Mary" showed them walking backwards with their eyes rolled back in their heads the way many Hindu gurus are often depicted. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: Tangle accepts the concept (but not the reality) of a true miracle, thinks he knows how to define it ("breaks the laws of nature"), and wants to discuss why miracles aren't real from a scientific perspective, which seems much more appropriate for this thread. Nearly. I'm saying that we know what a miracle is, or would be - equivocation apart - and should one occur in a way we can test to destruction, science would be forced to accept it. I'm trying to get beyond the silly definitional tactics to the scientific one - what kind of evidence would it take for science to throw its hands in the air and say ok, not only is this unexplained but it's also inexplicable? Why would the miraculous be non-susceptible to scientific enquiry? Excuses and semantics don't work, we've got detailed and specific evidence of god moving a bridge in a way that defies all our knowledge. It's testable, repeatable and confirmed by many methods. It's as solid as the ToE, more so in fact because it's all happening real time under scientific conditions.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0
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we've got detailed and specific evidence of god moving a bridge in a way that defies all our knowledge. It's testable, repeatable and confirmed by many methods. It's as solid as the ToE, more so in fact because it's all happening real time under scientific conditions.... But wait. This example is hypothetical, right? We dont actually yet have any examples with the criteria that you mention...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: I'm trying to get beyond the silly definitional tactics to the scientific one - what kind of evidence would it take for science to throw its hands in the air and say ok, not only is this unexplained but it's also inexplicable? I cannot think of any such possible evidence.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: But wait. This example is hypothetical, right? We dont actually yet have any examples with the criteria that you mention... Yes Phat, miracles are hypothetical :-)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: I cannot think of any such possible evidence. I've given you access to anything you could unreasonably need. What's you're problem?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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