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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14545
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1351 of 1358 (841549)
10-15-2018 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1350 by Faith
10-15-2018 5:02 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
There are numerous points I could raise here, but there is one that even you cannot dispute. The U.S. Constitution is not binding on the U.K.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1350 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 5:02 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1352 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 5:27 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 1353 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 5:54 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 1356 by caffeine, posted 10-15-2018 1:26 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1352 of 1358 (841550)
10-15-2018 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1351 by PaulK
10-15-2018 5:22 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
I guess I wasn't paying attention to the context, I thought he was talking about the US law.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1351 by PaulK, posted 10-15-2018 5:22 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1353 of 1358 (841551)
10-15-2018 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1351 by PaulK
10-15-2018 5:22 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
So the UK court wouldn't do us any good, and despite the temporary reprieve for Philips I really don't think the US courts are going to do any better in the end.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1351 by PaulK, posted 10-15-2018 5:22 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1354 by PaulK, posted 10-15-2018 5:58 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14545
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1354 of 1358 (841552)
10-15-2018 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1353 by Faith
10-15-2018 5:54 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
The courts won’t make religious belief carte blanche to ignore the law. And I hope that will continue to be the case in both countries.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1353 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 5:54 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6344
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1355 of 1358 (841553)
10-15-2018 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1348 by Faith
10-15-2018 3:56 AM


Re: What God said about Marriage
Faith writes:

Christians know it means God ordained marriage between a man and a woman and anything else is against His ordinance.

*Some* Christians *believe* that. However, that's not rhe words in your book. Other Christians believe differently.

Whatever you think, this is what these business owners are acting on.

I know what they're acting on - a set of 2,000 year old folk stories.

I guess you can refuse to accept it and punish them for it, but it's still what they are going to act on whatever you say or do about it.

That's their choice.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1348 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 3:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1357 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 1:51 PM Tangle has responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1551
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 1356 of 1358 (841567)
10-15-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1351 by PaulK
10-15-2018 5:22 AM


Re: gay marriage not gays
There are numerous points I could raise here, but there is one that even you cannot dispute. The U.S. Constitution is not binding on the U.K.

UK law enshrines freedom of belief as well of course, although the ECHR notes that

quote:
Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Limits to freedoms are perfectly sensible, since we're all agreed that you can't use religious belief as a legal justification for human sacrifice or something. But I always think the exceptions permitted in the convention are worded far too broadly. The above clause (and there are similar for most rights) seems to me to give an intelligent judge a Get Out of Jail Free card on which he can justify almost any violation of freedoms he feels like. This is why some countries in Europe have been able to ban the wearing of burkas in public, for example. This is interesting because the European Court of Human Rights rejected the French state's argument that a ban was necessary for security reasons, but accepted this, to me, bizarre argument:

quote:
The Court takes into account the respondent State’s point that the face plays an important role in social interaction. It can understand the view that individuals who are present in places open to all may not wish to see practices or attitudes developing there which would fundamentally call into question the possibility of open interpersonal relationships, which, by virtue of an established consensus, forms an indispensable element of community life within the society in question. The Court is therefore able to accept that the barrier raised against others by a veil concealing the face is perceived by the respondent State as breaching the right of others to live in a space of socialisation which makes living together easier.

Forgive the digression.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1351 by PaulK, posted 10-15-2018 5:22 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30161
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1357 of 1358 (841569)
10-15-2018 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1355 by Tangle
10-15-2018 6:11 AM


Re: What God said about Marriage
Yeah, well if SOME Christians understand gay marriage to be a violation of those scripture references, who happen to be in fact the ones who refuse to serve a gay wedding, most others not having a problem with it, since they aren't really Christians in my opinion, but anyway, those who do refuse on the basis of our biblical religion, are the ones targeted by the law. And I see that you really have no respect whatever for freedom of religion, so we can just throw that biblical ordinance out the window, right?

There's only one issue here although it keeps getting twisted out of recognition: either the scripture we regard as God's ordinance of marriage is respected by the secular law as it always used to be, or it isn't and we are headed full bore back to paganism. All the rest of this nonsensical discussion is irrelevant and should have been over long long ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1355 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2018 6:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1358 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2018 4:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6344
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1358 of 1358 (841582)
10-15-2018 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1357 by Faith
10-15-2018 1:51 PM


Re: What God said about Marriage
Faith writes:

Yeah, well if SOME Christians understand gay marriage to be a violation of those scripture references, who happen to be in fact the ones who refuse to serve a gay wedding, most others not having a problem with it, since they aren't really Christians in my opinion,

SOME, is in fact, the vast majotity. You cooks are a diminishing minority.

but anyway, those who do refuse on the basis of our biblical religion, are the ones targeted by the law.

Nobody, but nobody gives a flying fuck about you and yours. Really. Nobody is targeting anybody. All that's happening is that society is creating laws that give everyone an equal chance.

And I see that you really have no respect whatever for freedom of religion, so we can just throw that biblical ordinance out the window, right?

Well you're half right. I have zero respect for your beliefs. In fact, I have negative respect for them. But I respect your right to have them.

There's only one issue here although it keeps getting twisted out of recognition: either the scripture we regard as God's ordinance of marriage is respected by the secular law as it always used to be, or it isn't and we are headed full bore back to paganism.

Well that's obviously garbage. There didn't 'used to be' secular law; that's a very modern thing, but more importantly, the alternative to your primitive beliefs is not paganism.

All the rest of this nonsensical discussion is irrelevant and should have been over long long ago.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1357 by Faith, posted 10-15-2018 1:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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