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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


(2)
Message 1 of 969 (723893)
04-10-2014 4:29 PM


It is often enunciated that Modern biology only makes sense in light of evolution. Yet a growing number of scientists are frowning upon the modern synthesis and seem to be still quite useful scientists.

When I started my General Medicine course some three years ago, I was surprised to discover just how modest a role Evolution plays in medical school, aside from an introduction level treatment (1st year) it only received passing mentions for the most part. I expected it to be given as a subject on its own, but lo and behold that is not the case in medical school! It doesn't look like Medicine is that into Evolution!

Even more shocking was my biology professor's reply when I asked her to elaborate on some detail of evolution during a class, she told me not to trouble myself with such question that will only distract the lesson, and then she added evolution is contentious anyway. "Evolution is contentious!" From the lips of a research professor!

Many would say that doubters are in denial since evolution happens all the time, and they would speak of malarial resistance to chloroquine. Yet this is not the “theory of evolution” that is typically inflicted on the public. This relatively minor population changes has been empirically observed, what we haven't seen is body-plan level changes.

So why is evolution so controversial? Is there something wrong with the science or are people just stubborn? I would say that although many reject it on religious reasons other still reject it on grounds of science! As for me, after a full course in anatomy, topographical anatomy, and neurology, I simply cannot accept evolution, life looks very designed and so for the time being I will side with those scientists who call nonsense on the modern synthesis.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 04-10-2014 6:32 PM Cedre has responded
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 04-10-2014 6:47 PM Cedre has responded
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 6:57 PM Cedre has responded
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-10-2014 9:24 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 04-10-2014 11:00 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Pressie, posted 04-10-2014 11:40 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 22 by Coyote, posted 04-11-2014 12:31 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 04-11-2014 2:30 AM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 12:07 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 73 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-11-2014 3:11 PM Cedre has not yet responded

    
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Message 2 of 969 (723895)
04-10-2014 6:28 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why is evolution so controversial? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Taq
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Posts: 6068
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 3 of 969 (723896)
04-10-2014 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
04-10-2014 4:29 PM


Yet a growing number of scientists are frowning upon the modern synthesis and seem to be still quite useful scientists.

A growing number?

Tell you what. Let's do a little comparison. You count the number of scientists who reject evolution, have a degree in the biological sciences, and whose first name is Steve (or a derivation thereof, such as Estaban or Stephanie). I will do the same for the number of scientists who do accept evolution as the best explanation for biodiveristy in biology.

Sould like a deal?

So why is evolution so controversial? Is there something wrong with the science or are people just stubborn? I would say that although many reject it on religious reasons other still reject it on grounds of science! As for me, after a full course in anatomy, topographical anatomy, and neurology, I simply cannot accept evolution, life looks very designed and so for the time being I will side with those scientists who call nonsense on the modern synthesis.

Please, show us the peer reviewed papers where these claims are tested and supported.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 4:29 PM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:02 PM Taq has responded
 Message 152 by Bolder-dash, posted 04-14-2014 7:04 AM Taq has responded
 Message 262 by Ed67, posted 04-16-2014 9:46 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15561
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 4 of 969 (723898)
04-10-2014 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
04-10-2014 4:29 PM


Cedre writes:

Even more shocking was my biology professor's reply when I asked her to elaborate on some detail of evolution during a class, she told me not to trouble myself with such question that will only distract the lesson, and then she added evolution is contentious anyway. "Evolution is contentious!" From the lips of a research professor!

I think we all agree evolution is contentious. That's why this site exists. But it isn't contentious within scientific circles.

This relatively minor population changes has been empirically observed, what we haven't seen is body-plan level changes.

Body plan changes? You mean that happened recently rather than 500 million years ago? From what we understand of evolution, body plan changes would be pretty unexpected at this point.

I would say that although many reject it on religious reasons other still reject it on grounds of science!

And *I* would say that those who say they reject it on scientific grounds are misrepresenting the truth that their grounds are actually religious. If they actually rejected on scientific grounds then they would actually know something about evolution. Such as that it doesn't predict that we should be seeing new body plans.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 4:29 PM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:29 PM Percy has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 5 of 969 (723899)
04-10-2014 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
04-10-2014 4:29 PM


So why is evolution so controversial?

It isn't.

... a growing number of scientists are frowning upon the modern synthesis...

A "growing" number? This has been a mantra of religious kooks for several decades and yet none of them can show any such "growing" number.

What the National Center for Science Education has shown, however, is that for every scientist you can mention as an evolution naysayer there are multiple thousands who aren't.

Ever heard of the Steve Project?

Some choices here.

Either you picked this crap up from some creationist website that has been lying to you which makes you look like an idiot, or

You know this is a lie and you really are an idiot.

You're in here unarmed trying to do battle with the monster.

You might want to consider actually finding out what you're talking about before returning.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 4:29 PM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:07 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


(2)
Message 6 of 969 (723900)
04-10-2014 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taq
04-10-2014 6:32 PM


Yes a growing number of scientists!
And truth is not a popularity contest, consensus is not how truth is arrived at, otherwise you're just left with a argument from consensus/popularity!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 04-10-2014 6:32 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-11-2014 10:00 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 29 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 12:02 PM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 7 of 969 (723901)
04-10-2014 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
04-10-2014 6:57 PM


Why so hostile?
Yes there is a growing number of scientists who do question the Neo Darwinism.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 6:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 7:42 PM Cedre has responded
 Message 23 by Pressie, posted 04-11-2014 12:47 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


(1)
Message 8 of 969 (723903)
04-10-2014 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
04-10-2014 6:47 PM


Fact!
No new body plans, no information-rich systems, no complex functional machines have ever been observed or seen by direct experimentation to come about through alleged evolutionary mechanisms. All of the interesting questions about evolution lie at the end of a long trail of inferences, suppositions, and speculations.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 04-10-2014 6:47 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 04-10-2014 9:28 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 15 by hooah212002, posted 04-10-2014 9:31 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 04-10-2014 10:09 PM Cedre has not yet responded
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 04-11-2014 3:08 AM Cedre has responded
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 04-11-2014 11:57 AM Cedre has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 9 of 969 (723906)
04-10-2014 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Cedre
04-10-2014 7:07 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Yes there is a growing number of scientists who do question the Neo Darwinism.

I should hope so. Neo-Darwinism went out years ago. The Theory of Evolution is now many steps in advance of what used to be called the Modern Synthesis.

Such a lack of knowledge on your part is understandable. You do not know what you are talking about.

But let's get down to it ...

Yes there is a growing number of scientists who do question the Neo Darwinism.

Prove it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:07 PM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:49 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 04-10-2014 9:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 10 of 969 (723907)
04-10-2014 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by AZPaul3
04-10-2014 7:42 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
I should hope so. Neo-Darwinism went out years ago. The Theory of Evolution is now many steps in advance of what used to be called the Modern Synthesis.

What are you talking about? Neo Darwinism is the modern evolutionary synthesis. It is still the standard model! Looks like the ignorance is strong in you.

If as you say the Neo-Darwinism went out years ago, then clearly it has been questioned by enough scientist in order to be thrown out years ago! Hence your demand that I prove that the modern synthesis is questioned is rather odd.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 7:42 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 8:01 PM Cedre has responded
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 04-11-2014 12:25 PM Cedre has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 11 of 969 (723909)
04-10-2014 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Cedre
04-10-2014 7:49 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Wow. You really don't understand what's going on, do you!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:49 PM Cedre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 8:10 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1011 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


(1)
Message 12 of 969 (723910)
04-10-2014 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by AZPaul3
04-10-2014 8:01 PM


How so?
Neo-Darwinism is the conventional view of evolution. By saying it isn't you're the one who seems not to understand what's going on.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 8:01 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3487
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 13 of 969 (723919)
04-10-2014 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
04-10-2014 4:29 PM


When I started my General Medicine course some three years ago, I was surprised to discover just how modest a role Evolution plays in medical school, aside from an introduction level treatment (1st year) it only received passing mentions for the most part. I expected it to be given as a subject on its own, but lo and behold that is not the case in medical school! It doesn't look like Medicine is that into Evolution!

I think that medicine is concerned about the current state of the human body, not how said body came to be as it is.

Even more shocking was my biology professor's reply when I asked her to elaborate on some detail of evolution during a class, she told me not to trouble myself with such question that will only distract the lesson, and then she added evolution is contentious anyway. "Evolution is contentious!" From the lips of a research professor!

Again, evolution is at least largely irrelevant to medical procedure. Contentious? Yes, it is socially contentious, as per Percy's comment in message 4. There is also scientific contention concerning details in the theory of (biological) evolution. That is not to say that there is not broad scientific agreement (consensus) about the bulk of the theory.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 4:29 PM Cedre has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15561
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


(3)
Message 14 of 969 (723920)
04-10-2014 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cedre
04-10-2014 7:29 PM


Re: Fact!
Cedre writes:

No new body plans,...

I just told you that evolution doesn't predict that there should be new body plans today. What are you, the visual equivalent of deaf?

...no information-rich systems,...

Every unique mutation creates new information.

...no complex functional machines...

Evolution doesn't predict we should see complex functional machines being created before our very eyes. Everything we know about evolution says that it makes tiny changes to what already exists, and that these accumulate over time into change of ever increasing magnitude. We do see what evolution predicts we should see, and of course it makes perfect sense that we do not see what you're making up.

... have ever been observed or seen by direct experimentation to come about through alleged evolutionary mechanisms.

Good luck defining scientific knowledge as limited to what we learn through experiment.

In reality, science includes hypothesis, experimentation, observation, analysis, inference, replication and theory building.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:29 PM Cedre has not yet responded

    
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 286 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 15 of 969 (723921)
04-10-2014 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Cedre
04-10-2014 7:29 PM


Re: Fact!
And you claim to be studying medicine? I see a chiropractors office in your future. I also worry for any patients you might ever have.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Cedre, posted 04-10-2014 7:29 PM Cedre has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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