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Author Topic:   The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1561
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 1 of 254 (776410)
01-12-2016 7:17 PM


The standoff at Malheur has lasted for 10 days or so, with no sign of ending soon.

It deserves its own thread separate from the Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread

This article give some more background on what is driving the Bundys and how it directly affects the people who have chosen to spend their lives studying ecosystems in the western states and the organisms that live there.

In the Oregon Standoff, Science is a Hostage


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-12-2016 7:55 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 07-19-2017 11:53 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 2 of 254 (776413)
01-12-2016 7:55 PM


Domestic Terrorists and Anarchists (if they really have clue what those terms mean).

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 467 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(5)
Message 3 of 254 (776414)
01-12-2016 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
01-12-2016 7:17 PM


The author's stand for a patient, bloodless resolution is admirable. I hope it ends that way, too.

But as she notes, this has been going on for many years--more than 20 for Cliven Bundy, without consequence for him. The armed occupation is an escalation and has already provoked increased harassment of scientists and federal employees in the area.

Patience can lead to understanding, but insulating people from the consequences of their actions too long leads to bad outcomes. Sometimes, forbearance begets nothing but license.

The situation reminds me of Obama's first term, as he tried again and again to reach out beyond partisanship to the Congressional GOP. At some point, you have to accept that the other party has absolutely no interest in working with you, and your patience is seen as weakness.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-12-2016 7:17 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-12-2016 8:39 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2016 7:10 AM Omnivorous has responded
 Message 42 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-19-2016 1:50 AM Omnivorous has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1561
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(2)
Message 4 of 254 (776416)
01-12-2016 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
01-12-2016 7:55 PM


But as she notes, this has been going on for many years--more than 20 for Cliven Bundy, without consequence for him. The armed occupation is an escalation and has already provoked increased harassment of scientists and federal employees in the area.

I don't know who has jurisdiction in the cases involving the Bundys, but I would think that the U.S. Department of Justice, the Attorney General and federal prosecutors should have plenty of evidence to haul all the Bundys and their co-conspirators into federal court and put them on trial. Is it fear or a lack of will that lets these dimwits break law after law?

These are exactly the people who should not be allowed to touch any weapons or firearms. They are a parody of a militia.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-12-2016 7:55 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3901
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 5 of 254 (776418)
01-12-2016 9:46 PM


Now they've torn down a few tens of yards of Federal fence on Federal land so their buddy's cows can graze freely.

A judge is threatening to fine them something up to $70K for required security costs.

You can't make this stuff up.


  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1561
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 6 of 254 (776419)
01-12-2016 9:47 PM


It keeps getting crazier
It looks to me as if law enforcement and any federal authorities that might be on the scene have completely lost control, if they ever had it. It seems like the risk of bloodshed is increasing as more nutjobs keep showing up.

Self-appointed 'judge' arrives in Burns to ask local residents to charge government officials with crimes


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


    
jar
Member
Posts: 29187
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 7 of 254 (776421)
01-12-2016 11:06 PM


possible resolution.
Since the crimes are Federal, it seems the Federal government has some reasonable recourse that does not involve violence. The Federal courts can initiate asset seizure, all the cattle, any bank accounts, any property, vehicles, anything that moves or can be portable.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-13-2016 2:54 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1561
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 8 of 254 (776425)
01-13-2016 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
01-12-2016 11:06 PM


Re: possible resolution.
Since the crimes are Federal, it seems the Federal government has some reasonable recourse that does not involve violence. The Federal courts can initiate asset seizure, all the cattle, any bank accounts, any property, vehicles, anything that moves or can be portable.

Maybe with this bunch of nutters gathered here in Oregon, it is the perfect time to arrest Cliven and seize his assets in Nevada and also the Bubba boy's stuff down in Arizona.

It sure is beginning to look to me like governmental authorities at all levels are completely baffled in how to deal with this. They seem to think that nothing can be done without it leading violence before it's resolved, so they are paralyzed and can't do anything. Right now the boundary around the zone of repugnance (I mean occupation) is completely porous with people coming and going all day long. The Bubbas need to be isolated and arrested one by one when they come out when they get hungry.

I wonder if dear old Daddy Bubba every leaves the Nevada ranch? They should be watching him and grab him when he comes out. They got Bin Laden and sooner or later they have to face up to it and take away these guys freedom and toys.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 01-12-2016 11:06 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1561
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 9 of 254 (776426)
01-13-2016 3:03 AM


Dildos?
A friend just told me that dildos are being mailed to the Bundy Bubbas. I can just imagine the joy and gayety around the campfire tonight.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 01-13-2016 1:33 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9816
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 10 of 254 (776427)
01-13-2016 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
01-12-2016 7:55 PM


But as she notes, this has been going on for many years--more than 20 for Cliven Bundy, without consequence for him.

Not just going without consequence. Didn't a couple of Congressmen celebrate Bundy during the last incident?

http://mediamatters.org/...-candidates-who-are-silent/207711

quote:
In 2014, during the Bundy ranch standoff, Paul and Cruz initially argued that an important principle was at stake. Candidates Ben Carson, Mike Huckabee and Donald Trump also have expressed sympathy or support for Bundy.

quote:
He [Senator Rand Paul] also met with Bundy after a campaign stop in Mesquite, Nev., something Paul disputes the details of. Bundy told The Washington Post that he and Paul spoke for 15 to 20 minutes, mostly about land rights. Bundy said members of his family were also present.

I can understand the desire to be patient with the situation, but I don't understand why these guys are free to come and go and to have other people bring them candy bars.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-12-2016 7:55 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2016 8:46 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 467 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(5)
Message 11 of 254 (776431)
01-13-2016 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by NoNukes
01-13-2016 7:10 AM


NoNukes writes:

I can understand the desire to be patient with the situation, but I don't understand why these guys are free to come and go and to have other people bring them candy bars.

I'm not going to post links since they are so available, but the internet trolling of the terrorists may be the most effective response we've seen: Y'all Qaeda, Vanilla ISIS... In response to their request that snacks be sent through the (government!) mail, many suggestions were made. My favorites are crow and humble pie, though M&Ms without the red commie ones is pretty good, too.

Snickers.

And I do like the tweet suggesting they might abandon their occupation to find their homes occupied by armed Native Americans who refuse to leave until all their lands are returned.

The terrorists announced they would join a public meeting with local residents Friday to explain their actions and elicit support.

Considerable support for federal restraint has come from various quarters, including retired FBI agents involved with previous stand-offs. The logic is that the place is isolated, thus not endangering the public; there are no hostages; the terrorists want confrontation. I suspect the widespread ridicule also looks attractive to the authorities, as it chafes the terrorists personally and erodes sympathy.

Reportedly, there was some tension when another armed group joined them briefly, but they were sent away, and everyone relaxed. So this hands-off approach will work until it doesn't, I guess, and when it fails, it will fail spectacularly. What could go wrong with allowing armed felons on a mission from God to come and go freely?

Imagine how this looks to anyone whose peaceful protest in public spaces were met with tear gas and tactical police. To Black Lives Matter folks, there could be no more vivid demonstration of white privilege: does anyone believe that a group of armed black men could seize anything, anywhere in the U.S., and enjoy this hands-off approach?

The article from Tanypteryx's OP reminds me that the terrorists are a local, over-ripe fruit of the right's growing disdain for science, and their identification of it as a liberal tool. The public memory is short, and few people will remember how badly poor land use practices damaged the ecology of the west in previous decades. The terrorists complain of arbitrary, changing environmental regulations on their use of public land, as though they had been excellent stewards of it until the government intervened.

Instead, they were despoiling public lands while paying pennies on the dollar cost of private grazing land (when they paid it). I'd like to know if private land owners give cattle ranchers a free hand to create the same damage. I doubt it.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2016 7:10 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-13-2016 3:54 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18867
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 12 of 254 (776442)
01-13-2016 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tanypteryx
01-13-2016 3:03 AM


Re: Dildos?
and a bunch of candy dicks ...

http://usuncut.com/...ver-mailed-in-dildos-and-bags-of-dicks

quote:
Watch Militia Leader Go Berserk Over Mailed-in Dildos and Bags of D*cks (VIDEO)

How can he handle revolution when he can’t handle 6 inches?

Notorious anti-Muslim demonstrator Jon Ritzheimer — one of the leaders of the armed occupation of a federal building in Oregon — has had his fill of dicks. Specifically, the dildos and bags of tiny penis-shaped candies mailed in from across the country.

Ritzheimer posted a video rant to his personal Facebook page in which he shows the camera the dozens of boxes of sex toys and candies shaped like male genitalia that the militia has received in the mail since their occupation began earlier this month. In a rich bit of irony, the militant islamophobe holds up a bag of penis-shaped candy, which technically counts as one of the “snacks” the group previously asked for in the mail: ...


See link for the video

Hilarious. A comedy of eros?

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-13-2016 3:03 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1561
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(3)
Message 13 of 254 (776448)
01-13-2016 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Omnivorous
01-13-2016 8:46 AM


I'm not going to post links since they are so available

There is a lot out there (it's the internet), but some things are too good to pass up.

Rancher: 'I didn't know anything' about Bundy entering property, destroying fence

quote:
"I am very upset," Puckett told The Oregonian/OregonLive.

His ranch hands have already repaired the fence.



.

Builder of website about Malheur occupation says '#Pray4ISIS' social media posts were just rants

quote:
Fry, who has also made a website supporting the standoff, said in an interview Tuesday night that he is not a supporter of the Islamic State. He characterized his Google+ page — which also includes the hashtag "#HitlerWasRight" and phrase "obama needs to be hung after being found guilty for TREASON!!" — as him "ranting off" and being facetious and sarcastic at times.

Strange bedfellows......


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2016 8:46 AM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 14 of 254 (776454)
01-13-2016 6:50 PM


I guess the one thing we've learned about being a rancher is that you don't have to be there to do it. You can take a vacation on government land for, as they have promised, "years", and the cows will pretty much take care of themselves.

Imagine if a schoolteacher or a convenience-store clerk or a firefighter decided to take a few weeks, or months, or years off their jobs to protest against their hard working conditions by occupying a bird sanctuary. Well then, they'd end up having difficulty paying their rent, wouldn't they? But it seems that you don't have to show up to your job and do any actual work to be a rancher. You just have to own cows ... and stick out your begging hand to ask for favors from Uncle Sam.

I gotta get me some cows.


Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2016 8:01 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 467 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 15 of 254 (776464)
01-13-2016 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
01-13-2016 6:50 PM


And a hat.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-13-2016 6:50 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-13-2016 10:39 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
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